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I respect the clarity of the vision and the drivenness to make the vision a reality. I disagree with the vision. The best analogy I can think of right now is h

I respect the clarity of the vision and the drivenness to make the vision a reality. I disagree with the vision. The best analogy I can think of right now is high school kids renting a hotel for a party and trashing it and then doing the same thing next week. That’s humanity right now. There is no Planet B until we build a mutualistic relationship with the one that created us. And yes when I say “there is no Planet B” I’m being vaguely spiritual. I believe Earth is a creature and somehow won’t allow one of its creations to explore the stars until that creation learns mutualism. But I’m also being pragmatic: A) colonialism was a big motivation in our last 2 world wars and we still have intense colonizer memes circulating through our societies B) we now have the means to destroy ourselves thoroughly C) Mars is the crown jewel of potential colonies right now.

_Microft 7y ago
We do not backup our data because we are planning to wreck our harddrive. We hope to never have to use it but if things go awry, it will be there.
- kaycebasques 7y ago
  It will be there for a beautiful cross-section of humanity for a while so long as Musk controls it (but even then he surely has some unconscious biases that will limit certain segments of the population from being there) and then nuclear war will break out on Earth and it will be there for whoever is well-connected to whatever government seizes control of it fastest.
kiba 7y ago
We can do both. Cheap and rapid space launch may allow us to put polluting industries where they belong: in space.
- kaycebasques 7y ago
  Ah, yes, the old “just shove it under the rug” strategy.
_carl_jung 7y ago
The pursuit of sustainable living and the pursuit of a multi-planetary existence are parallel endeavours, not serial ones. Perhaps the view from Mars will instil a renewed perspective on our dependence on Earth, and teach us lessons on ecological management via terraforming.
- kaycebasques 7y ago
  > The pursuit of sustainable living and the pursuit of a multi-planetary existence are parallel endeavours, not serial ones. I agree that they’re parallel because the reality is that they’re both happening right now. I’m pointing out that there’s a huge risk in not figuring out A before B, which is that we’ll just be transporting our problems to a new planet (and if they succeed, then whoever controls Mars will be able to use their monopoly to exacerbate problems on Earth). Granted, the rocket sure is shiny, though... funny how that trick never fails ;) > Perhaps the view from Mars will instil a renewed perspective on our dependence on Earth, and teach us lessons on ecological management via terraforming. Or perhaps you’re in the equivalent of an “early internet” optimism phase around Mars exploration. We have all the resources we need here. The research around mutualistic living (renewables, land use, food waste, etc) is making that clear. If we’re glorifying hard problems, then the real hard problem is figuring out how to get humanity to share our already abundant resources equitably and peacefully. Once we solve that problem we will be ready for Mars. And to be clear I share the dream of exploring the stars. But I can’t in good faith support that dream until we shift from a parasitic to a mutualistic relationship.
- kitsunesoba 7y ago
  I would argue that achieving self-sustainability on Mars forces the issue, even. The problem we’ve had on Earth is that because the costs of being wasteful, polluting, etc are externalized, which makes such behavior “cheap” in the short term — on Earth, the environment is constantly handing out loans that we rarely if ever repay. That’s not an option on settlements beyond Earth’s surface. There, you’re forced to live with every decision you make almost immediately, so if you’re wasteful or stupid it’s promptly going to bite you in the ass and potentially threaten the lives of everybody involved. You’re not given the option of fixing things later, you have to do the correct thing now, and I think that’s the type of environment it’s going to take for humanity to change its ways.
de_watcher 7y ago
Need to ask the question "What is life?" Maybe it's just the thing that tries to fill the volume. Because otherwise it's displaced by a different one that does it faster. You argue about "how fast" should it be so life won't starve itself, but I think everybody is familiar with this danger. Then we can approach it more formally: what time/speed/volume/survival probability we want, try to calculate it for different options and go from there.
- kaycebasques 7y ago
  > Maybe it's just the thing that tries to fill the volume. Because otherwise it's displaced by a different one that does it faster. This sounds like parasite logic to me. We can do better. The fact that I can even conceive thoughts of doing better is all the proof I need to know that we can do better. That’s what vision is about.
CryptoPunk 7y ago
Developing technology for surviving outside Earth's atmosphere contributes to advances in sustainability tech. It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources.
- kaycebasques 7y ago
  > Developing technology for surviving outside Earth's atmosphere contributes to advances in sustainability tech. Good point, thanks. > It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources. Sustainability research is making it clear that we already have an abundance of clean energy resources here on Earth. If Mars does indeed flood the market with cheap clean energy and makes clean energy the overwhelmingly obvious choice, then I agree that will be a net win. But the problem doesn’t appear to be a resource scarcity issue here on Earth so I’m unconvinced that the solution is more resources. Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically? We essentially need something that can be substituted into our existing fossil fuel infrastructure. Mars provides something like that?
  - CryptoPunk 7y ago
    >>Good point, thanks. My pleasure. >>Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically? I am referring to solar energy via space-based solar panels. Economical solar energy would give us virtually unlimited energy resources.
kaycebasques 7y ago
A related question: What’s your bet on how long until the US government starts taking SpaceX seriously and commandeers it under the pretext of national security? Or is Musk already cozied up with the MIC?

_Microft 7y ago

We do not backup our data because we are planning to wreck our harddrive. We hope to never have to use it but if things go awry, it will be there.

kaycebasques 7y ago
It will be there for a beautiful cross-section of humanity for a while so long as Musk controls it (but even then he surely has some unconscious biases that will limit certain segments of the population from being there) and then nuclear war will break out on Earth and it will be there for whoever is well-connected to whatever government seizes control of it fastest.

kiba 7y ago

We can do both. Cheap and rapid space launch may allow us to put polluting industries where they belong: in space.

kaycebasques 7y ago
Ah, yes, the old “just shove it under the rug” strategy.

_carl_jung 7y ago

The pursuit of sustainable living and the pursuit of a multi-planetary existence are parallel endeavours, not serial ones. Perhaps the view from Mars will instil a renewed perspective on our dependence on Earth, and teach us lessons on ecological management via terraforming.

kaycebasques 7y ago
> The pursuit of sustainable living and the pursuit of a multi-planetary existence are parallel endeavours, not serial ones. I agree that they’re parallel because the reality is that they’re both happening right now. I’m pointing out that there’s a huge risk in not figuring out A before B, which is that we’ll just be transporting our problems to a new planet (and if they succeed, then whoever controls Mars will be able to use their monopoly to exacerbate problems on Earth). Granted, the rocket sure is shiny, though... funny how that trick never fails ;) > Perhaps the view from Mars will instil a renewed perspective on our dependence on Earth, and teach us lessons on ecological management via terraforming. Or perhaps you’re in the equivalent of an “early internet” optimism phase around Mars exploration. We have all the resources we need here. The research around mutualistic living (renewables, land use, food waste, etc) is making that clear. If we’re glorifying hard problems, then the real hard problem is figuring out how to get humanity to share our already abundant resources equitably and peacefully. Once we solve that problem we will be ready for Mars. And to be clear I share the dream of exploring the stars. But I can’t in good faith support that dream until we shift from a parasitic to a mutualistic relationship.
kitsunesoba 7y ago
I would argue that achieving self-sustainability on Mars forces the issue, even. The problem we’ve had on Earth is that because the costs of being wasteful, polluting, etc are externalized, which makes such behavior “cheap” in the short term — on Earth, the environment is constantly handing out loans that we rarely if ever repay. That’s not an option on settlements beyond Earth’s surface. There, you’re forced to live with every decision you make almost immediately, so if you’re wasteful or stupid it’s promptly going to bite you in the ass and potentially threaten the lives of everybody involved. You’re not given the option of fixing things later, you have to do the correct thing now, and I think that’s the type of environment it’s going to take for humanity to change its ways.

de_watcher 7y ago

Need to ask the question "What is life?" Maybe it's just the thing that tries to fill the volume. Because otherwise it's displaced by a different one that does it faster. You argue about "how fast" should it be so life won't starve itself, but I think everybody is familiar with this danger. Then we can approach it more formally: what time/speed/volume/survival probability we want, try to calculate it for different options and go from there.

kaycebasques 7y ago
> Maybe it's just the thing that tries to fill the volume. Because otherwise it's displaced by a different one that does it faster. This sounds like parasite logic to me. We can do better. The fact that I can even conceive thoughts of doing better is all the proof I need to know that we can do better. That’s what vision is about.

CryptoPunk 7y ago

Developing technology for surviving outside Earth's atmosphere contributes to advances in sustainability tech. It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources.

kaycebasques 7y ago
> Developing technology for surviving outside Earth's atmosphere contributes to advances in sustainability tech. Good point, thanks. > It also opens up huge amounts of clean energy resources. Sustainability research is making it clear that we already have an abundance of clean energy resources here on Earth. If Mars does indeed flood the market with cheap clean energy and makes clean energy the overwhelmingly obvious choice, then I agree that will be a net win. But the problem doesn’t appear to be a resource scarcity issue here on Earth so I’m unconvinced that the solution is more resources. Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically? We essentially need something that can be substituted into our existing fossil fuel infrastructure. Mars provides something like that?
- CryptoPunk 7y ago
  >>Good point, thanks. My pleasure. >>Also, what clean energy resources are you referring to specifically? I am referring to solar energy via space-based solar panels. Economical solar energy would give us virtually unlimited energy resources.

kaycebasques 7y ago

A related question: What’s your bet on how long until the US government starts taking SpaceX seriously and commandeers it under the pretext of national security? Or is Musk already cozied up with the MIC?