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> > if there's demand > And if there isn't? I feel like this question is meant for speculators and investors. > Bisq appears to rely on bank transfer service

by dmos62 7y ago

> > if there's demand > And if there isn't? I feel like this question is meant for speculators and investors. > Bisq appears to rely on bank transfer services, which are usually traceable, reversible Bank trasnfers are of course not anonymous, but there's nothing linking them to crypto trading, because those are direct transfers from buyer to seller. The platform, Bisq, doesn't ever touch the money. Bank transfers are sometimes reversible (called chargeback), but for example for SEPA that's only in the case of theft and you're not actually obligated to return the money, but you would have to explain why you received it. The worst that I've heard happen is a bank account being frozen, because of suspect activity (unexplained transfers from many different private individuals). Bisq has effective mechanisms for dealing with the chargeback risk. If anyone reading this is at all interested in trustless system, I highly recommend taking a closer look at Bisq.

Nursie 7y ago
Doesn't sound massively trustless to me, and it does sound like passing the risk of frozen accounts etc onto the user.
- dmos62 7y ago
  It's trustless in that you don't need to trust the system. It's not risk free; however, in practice the risk has proven to be negligible. The platform is matching buyers and sellers. There isn't a middleman in the transactions, so there isn't any passing of risk. The risk of freezing your account is only a problem if trading crypto is not permited by your bank, otherwise you can just explain/prove what you're doing. Even if it's not permited, you can be smart about how you trade to minimize risk exposure. Again, it's not risk-free, but you're aware of the risks and the platform doesn't require trust (definition of trustless).
  - Nursie 7y ago
    The risk is that you start getting looked at for regular large transactions. The platform does require trust, it requires trust in the banking system and in the person you're transacting with. Not sure really what it achieves apart from delegating trust from a central authority to a disparate set of individuals. I'm not convinced that's a good thing.
    - dmos62 7y ago
      Generating bizzare banking activity is one of the risks, but, again, only where what you're doing is illegal. Also, you don't have to trade in attention attracting sums. You don't have to trust the person you're trading with, because the platform uses an escrow system (multi-signature BTC addresses), account age signing (an old account is unlikely to have been stolen) and has mediation. That leaves negligible risk, of which you're aware. > delegating trust from a central authority to a disparate set of individuals. I'm not convinced that's a good thing Bisq provides very similar decentralization and privacy guarantees as Bitcoin (which is the point, because a system is as decentralized/private as its weakest link), so I'll delegate answering this to the myriad of articles about Bitcoin's trustworthiness.
      - Nursie 7y ago
        > the platform uses an escrow system (multi-signature BTC addresses), But still acknowledges that some methods can result in the money being recalled after the BTC has been released. > account age signing (an old account is unlikely to have been stolen) Unlikely, but you still have to trust that the account hasn't simply been used to build up trust before the big score, which is something we see over and over and over again in the cryptocurrency space. > Bisq provides very similar decentralization and privacy guarantees as Bitcoin Which is absolutely not the same thing I pointed out to you as the problem. You can't just say "but bitcoin!" to wave away that this platform still involves trust, and not trust in a regulated actor like a bank, but trust in a number of actors, any of whom may not be trustworthy. You may not have to trust the platform itself, but it's not clear to me that that is any sort of positive.

by dmos62 7y ago

Nursie 7y ago

Doesn't sound massively trustless to me, and it does sound like passing the risk of frozen accounts etc onto the user.

dmos62 7y ago
It's trustless in that you don't need to trust the system. It's not risk free; however, in practice the risk has proven to be negligible. The platform is matching buyers and sellers. There isn't a middleman in the transactions, so there isn't any passing of risk. The risk of freezing your account is only a problem if trading crypto is not permited by your bank, otherwise you can just explain/prove what you're doing. Even if it's not permited, you can be smart about how you trade to minimize risk exposure. Again, it's not risk-free, but you're aware of the risks and the platform doesn't require trust (definition of trustless).
- Nursie 7y ago
  The risk is that you start getting looked at for regular large transactions. The platform does require trust, it requires trust in the banking system and in the person you're transacting with. Not sure really what it achieves apart from delegating trust from a central authority to a disparate set of individuals. I'm not convinced that's a good thing.
  - dmos62 7y ago
    Generating bizzare banking activity is one of the risks, but, again, only where what you're doing is illegal. Also, you don't have to trade in attention attracting sums. You don't have to trust the person you're trading with, because the platform uses an escrow system (multi-signature BTC addresses), account age signing (an old account is unlikely to have been stolen) and has mediation. That leaves negligible risk, of which you're aware. > delegating trust from a central authority to a disparate set of individuals. I'm not convinced that's a good thing Bisq provides very similar decentralization and privacy guarantees as Bitcoin (which is the point, because a system is as decentralized/private as its weakest link), so I'll delegate answering this to the myriad of articles about Bitcoin's trustworthiness.
    - Nursie 7y ago
      > the platform uses an escrow system (multi-signature BTC addresses), But still acknowledges that some methods can result in the money being recalled after the BTC has been released. > account age signing (an old account is unlikely to have been stolen) Unlikely, but you still have to trust that the account hasn't simply been used to build up trust before the big score, which is something we see over and over and over again in the cryptocurrency space. > Bisq provides very similar decentralization and privacy guarantees as Bitcoin Which is absolutely not the same thing I pointed out to you as the problem. You can't just say "but bitcoin!" to wave away that this platform still involves trust, and not trust in a regulated actor like a bank, but trust in a number of actors, any of whom may not be trustworthy. You may not have to trust the platform itself, but it's not clear to me that that is any sort of positive.