4 ms·

> it's because the two particles don't know along which (relative) angle the other particle will be measured ahead of time Since the two particles are created

> it's because the two particles don't know along which (relative) angle the other particle will be measured ahead of time Since the two particles are created from the same source, why couldn't it be that the two particles are affected by the initial state of their source so as that to appear correlated?

cyphar 7y ago
The nature of the source is the reason they are correlated in that particular way (that is effectively what entanglement is achieving, at least in this simple example). In particular, the source in the classic Bell inequalities produced particles that had opposite spins (guaranteed by conservation of angular momentum). But that's effectively just a description of the problem. It doesn't really help you come up with a local hidden-variable theory of QM could produce the same "correlation" vs angle curve. The problem (in computer science terms) is that you need to come up with an algorithm (which for a given particle (A or B) takes some state (called lA or lB), and an angle parameter (oA and oB)) that gives you an output which has the statistical distribution which agrees with QM if you randomly sample lA and lB values. In other words, write an algorithm such that the "correlation" of Measure(oA, lA) and Measure(oB, lB) is always equal to precisely -cos(|oA - oB|) without using global variables. It turns out this is (provably) impossible. NOTE: In the real experiment you're actually measuring in 3D, so the angles should actually be unit vectors and the angle difference is actually (a function of) the dot product.
- axilmar 7y ago
  I don't get it. If the source is responsible for the correlation, what other explanation do we need? why we need to explain it with a local hidden-variable theory of QM? Why isn't it enough that the source is responsible for the correlation? And since it's impossible to write that algorithm, why not simply suppose the values of iA and iB are such that the correlation is possible? Wouldn't global variables actually be non-local communication, instead of local? they are global variables, just like entanglement is 'global' for the universe.
  - cyphar 7y ago
    > If the source is responsible for the correlation, what other explanation do we need? Why isn't it enough that the source is responsible for the correlation? Ah, okay -- that's a very good question (I skipped over a bunch of context on what problem we are discussing in my first responsd). The problem is that all quantum mechanical measurements appear to be random. We might know (through our understanding of quantum mechanics) that measuring a particle in a particular state will give us spin-up 75% of the time, and spin-down 25% of the time -- but we cannot predict what any single measurement will give us. As far as we can tell, each measurement is as close to a real-life RNG as we can find. This apparent randomness (and thus inability to predict individual experiments -- only being able to predict the statistical distribution of many experimental trials) has unnerved scientists for several decades, and thus many "deeper theories" have surfaced to try to explain where this randomness is coming from. Hidden-variable theories are one such class of theory, and are based around the idea that there is just some additional fundamental quantum numbers associated with quantum states which we don't know about -- these are the most natural-feeling theories because these kinds of extensions are a common theme in the history of physics. A local hidden-variable theory would be the most ideal because it would allow for the unification of relativity and quantum mechanics -- but alas, it is not to be. > why not simply suppose the values of iA and iB are such that the correlation is possible Punting the problem to the state doesn't help -- the state variables are decided ahead-of-time when the particle states are first created. Having your algorithm just use a value in the state still counts as an algorithm. I really recommend trying to come up with a toy algorithm to solve this problem, to get an idea of where the hidden complexity arises. The key problem (as you may discover yourself) is that you can't tell what angle the other particle will be measured with, and thus you don't know what statistical weight to apply to the state you have internally. > Wouldn't global variables actually be non-local communication, instead of local? Yes, "global variables" would be non-local. Hence why you can't use them (Bell's inequalities only prove the non-existence of local hidden-variable theories of QM).
    - axilmar 7y ago
      I still don't get it. In Bell's thought experiment, the angle between the axes of two particles is well known before any particle is fired. Why do you say the following? > you can't tell what angle the other particle will be measured with If the angle is 90 degrees, the correlation would be 50%, if the angle is 180 degrees, the correlation would be 100%, and when the angle is 0 degrees, the correlation would be 50%. What are you saying (or rather, the theory says) is that since we have the above numbers, if there were local variables, then the correlation, for example, at 90 degrees should have been 25%, and the correllation at 270 degrees should have been 75%, but since in both cases the correlation isn't that, we can't have local variables? Edit: What about this algorithm? struct ParticleState { double otherAngle; }; double algorithm(ParticleState state, double angle) { return -cos(abs(angle - state.otherAngle)); } 'other angle' is the angle of the other entangled particle. This algorithm returns precisely -cos(|oA - oB|) as you suggested.

cyphar 7y ago

The nature of the source is the reason they are correlated in that particular way (that is effectively what entanglement is achieving, at least in this simple example). In particular, the source in the classic Bell inequalities produced particles that had opposite spins (guaranteed by conservation of angular momentum). But that's effectively just a description of the problem. It doesn't really help you come up with a local hidden-variable theory of QM could produce the same "correlation" vs angle curve. The problem (in computer science terms) is that you need to come up with an algorithm (which for a given particle (A or B) takes some state (called lA or lB), and an angle parameter (oA and oB)) that gives you an output which has the statistical distribution which agrees with QM if you randomly sample lA and lB values. In other words, write an algorithm such that the "correlation" of Measure(oA, lA) and Measure(oB, lB) is always equal to precisely -cos(|oA - oB|) without using global variables. It turns out this is (provably) impossible. NOTE: In the real experiment you're actually measuring in 3D, so the angles should actually be unit vectors and the angle difference is actually (a function of) the dot product.

axilmar 7y ago
I don't get it. If the source is responsible for the correlation, what other explanation do we need? why we need to explain it with a local hidden-variable theory of QM? Why isn't it enough that the source is responsible for the correlation? And since it's impossible to write that algorithm, why not simply suppose the values of iA and iB are such that the correlation is possible? Wouldn't global variables actually be non-local communication, instead of local? they are global variables, just like entanglement is 'global' for the universe.
- cyphar 7y ago
  > If the source is responsible for the correlation, what other explanation do we need? Why isn't it enough that the source is responsible for the correlation? Ah, okay -- that's a very good question (I skipped over a bunch of context on what problem we are discussing in my first responsd). The problem is that all quantum mechanical measurements appear to be random. We might know (through our understanding of quantum mechanics) that measuring a particle in a particular state will give us spin-up 75% of the time, and spin-down 25% of the time -- but we cannot predict what any single measurement will give us. As far as we can tell, each measurement is as close to a real-life RNG as we can find. This apparent randomness (and thus inability to predict individual experiments -- only being able to predict the statistical distribution of many experimental trials) has unnerved scientists for several decades, and thus many "deeper theories" have surfaced to try to explain where this randomness is coming from. Hidden-variable theories are one such class of theory, and are based around the idea that there is just some additional fundamental quantum numbers associated with quantum states which we don't know about -- these are the most natural-feeling theories because these kinds of extensions are a common theme in the history of physics. A local hidden-variable theory would be the most ideal because it would allow for the unification of relativity and quantum mechanics -- but alas, it is not to be. > why not simply suppose the values of iA and iB are such that the correlation is possible Punting the problem to the state doesn't help -- the state variables are decided ahead-of-time when the particle states are first created. Having your algorithm just use a value in the state still counts as an algorithm. I really recommend trying to come up with a toy algorithm to solve this problem, to get an idea of where the hidden complexity arises. The key problem (as you may discover yourself) is that you can't tell what angle the other particle will be measured with, and thus you don't know what statistical weight to apply to the state you have internally. > Wouldn't global variables actually be non-local communication, instead of local? Yes, "global variables" would be non-local. Hence why you can't use them (Bell's inequalities only prove the non-existence of local hidden-variable theories of QM).
  - axilmar 7y ago
    I still don't get it. In Bell's thought experiment, the angle between the axes of two particles is well known before any particle is fired. Why do you say the following? > you can't tell what angle the other particle will be measured with If the angle is 90 degrees, the correlation would be 50%, if the angle is 180 degrees, the correlation would be 100%, and when the angle is 0 degrees, the correlation would be 50%. What are you saying (or rather, the theory says) is that since we have the above numbers, if there were local variables, then the correlation, for example, at 90 degrees should have been 25%, and the correllation at 270 degrees should have been 75%, but since in both cases the correlation isn't that, we can't have local variables? Edit: What about this algorithm? struct ParticleState { double otherAngle; }; double algorithm(ParticleState state, double angle) { return -cos(abs(angle - state.otherAngle)); } 'other angle' is the angle of the other entangled particle. This algorithm returns precisely -cos(|oA - oB|) as you suggested.