4 ms·

You know, when you can reliably expect Jon Gruber's opinions on a matter to lean pro-Apple -- when he does all sorts of mental gymnastics to make the logic come

You know, when you can reliably expect Jon Gruber's opinions on a matter to lean pro-Apple -- when he does all sorts of mental gymnastics to make the logic come out right, no matter how absurd it sounds -- well, how is he not regarded as a shill?

Charuru 16y ago
I thought this was common knowledge. He IS regarded as a shill. His analysis is still often pretty good as long as one acknowledges the bias.
- Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
  This is it. With so few people providing genuinely intelligent, impartial advice, often you end you going to someone like Gruber who provides intelligent, partial advice and then balance it with similar voices on the other side of the argument. I like Gruber but I know that some things are going to come with a certain spin.
tjogin 16y ago
John Gruber has been one of the most vocal critics of the App Store, its rules and the inconsistent application thereof.
- jessedhillon 16y ago
  Gruber says, FTA: "Maybe I'm missing something, but these guys claiming to be surprised and disappointed by Apple's insistence on a 30 percent cut of subscriptions when their own business model is to take a 30 percent cut of subscriptions strikes me as rich. And how can they claim that Readability isn't 'serving up content'? That's exactly what Readability does." On the one hand you have Apple, who charges 30% for access to a platform. An app developer creates that value by writing something that people want, and then Apple takes 30% to deliver it. On the other hand you have Readability, who essentially creates a filter for content -- just a little bit beyond applying a stylesheet to the content, as far as the end result goes. The actual mechanics are more involved, but the end-result is the same as if someone were to apply a custom CSS to your article that made it nice and, well, readable. And for this service, they charge $5/mo and spread 70% of your $5 with the producers of the different content which gets made readable. To say then, that Readability is creating content is ridiculous. They are transforming existing content -- there is no comparison between them and, say, Amazon, who this policy is meant to target. Under Gruber's definition of 'serving up content', the mini Opera browser which delivers pre-rendered images of web pages (on some platforms) is also 'serving up content'. Hell, VNC clients can easily be construed to be content servers under this rationalization!
  - tjogin 16y ago
    I didn't even comment on this specific case. I just wanted to point out that, contrary to what you claimed, John Gruber have in fact criticized Apple quite a bit, and especially on the topic of their App Store regulations. To claim that he always agrees with Apple is simply either uninformed, or a lie.
    - TillE 16y ago
      Yes, Gruber is generally decent (except when it comes to Android, where he seizes every available opportunity to make snide, petty, uninformed remarks). But everyone else here is talking about this specific case, which, as you suggest, seems startlingly out-of-character for him.
    - jessedhillon 16y ago
      I didn't say he never disagrees with Apple. I said that he frequently does agree with them and that he often goes to absurd extents to justify positions that seem contrary to common sense. I said that he used tortured logic to arrive at these positions, and that he can be counted on reliably to agree with Apple. Glenn Beck occasionally disagrees with the Republicans too but I bet I know how he'll vote in most elections.
    - smackfu 16y ago
      He is sometimes critical, true, when the critical mass goes against Apple, but his sneering pro-Apple stance 99% of the time is insufferable. It seems like 50% of his posts are about iPad competitors.
  - msie 16y ago
    To say then, that Readability is creating content is ridiculous. They are transforming existing content -- there is no comparison between them and, say, Amazon... Amazon isn't creating content either. They are reformatting books into the Kindle format. Which is similar to what Readability does.
    - erohead 16y ago
- jerome_bent 16y ago
  There is a difference between criticizing the implementation of a policy (e.g. the AppStore review process is too slow, the AppStore review process sometimes makes embarrassing mistakes) and criticizing the policy itself (e.g. Apple's control over the AppStore is a bad thing). Gruber (and Marco et al) might criticize specific tactics by Apple but the Mac pundits largely agree with the strategy and the goals—whatever the strategy or goals may be.
  - tjogin 16y ago
    That's simply not true either. John Gruber and other Apple pundits often disagree vehemently with Apple's strategy and their offers. Remember when Steve Jobs presented the first third-party developer solution for iPhone: web apps? "If all you have to offer is a shit sandwich, just say it. Don’t tell us how lucky we are and that it’s going to taste delicious." - John Gruber http://daringfireball.net/2007/06/wwdc_2007_keynote http://daringfireball.net/2007/06/wwdc_2007_keynote
    - jerome_bent 16y ago
      You're confusing a strategy (i.e. provide a way for developers to make apps within Apple's rules) to a tactic (i.e. only make web apps, not native apps). It's worth noting that Gruber would later defend Apple's decision to initially offer only web app development because, according to Gruber, obviously the tools for native apps were just not ready and the AppStore was still in development. By Gruber's own admission, he wants Apple to succeed. Everything else is secondary.
      - tjogin 16y ago
        You're splitting hairs. Or rather, drawing arbitrary lines in the sand. And how could anyone in their right mind not defend Apple's choice to at the time not offer tools that didn't exist then? That doesn't make you biased, it makes you reasonable. He has also admitted that he wants Google and Android to succeed. That doesn't mean he agrees with all their strategies, no matter how selectively you want to define "strategy".
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

Charuru 16y ago

I thought this was common knowledge. He IS regarded as a shill. His analysis is still often pretty good as long as one acknowledges the bias.

Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
This is it. With so few people providing genuinely intelligent, impartial advice, often you end you going to someone like Gruber who provides intelligent, partial advice and then balance it with similar voices on the other side of the argument. I like Gruber but I know that some things are going to come with a certain spin.

tjogin 16y ago

John Gruber has been one of the most vocal critics of the App Store, its rules and the inconsistent application thereof.

jessedhillon 16y ago
Gruber says, FTA: "Maybe I'm missing something, but these guys claiming to be surprised and disappointed by Apple's insistence on a 30 percent cut of subscriptions when their own business model is to take a 30 percent cut of subscriptions strikes me as rich. And how can they claim that Readability isn't 'serving up content'? That's exactly what Readability does." On the one hand you have Apple, who charges 30% for access to a platform. An app developer creates that value by writing something that people want, and then Apple takes 30% to deliver it. On the other hand you have Readability, who essentially creates a filter for content -- just a little bit beyond applying a stylesheet to the content, as far as the end result goes. The actual mechanics are more involved, but the end-result is the same as if someone were to apply a custom CSS to your article that made it nice and, well, readable. And for this service, they charge $5/mo and spread 70% of your $5 with the producers of the different content which gets made readable. To say then, that Readability is creating content is ridiculous. They are transforming existing content -- there is no comparison between them and, say, Amazon, who this policy is meant to target. Under Gruber's definition of 'serving up content', the mini Opera browser which delivers pre-rendered images of web pages (on some platforms) is also 'serving up content'. Hell, VNC clients can easily be construed to be content servers under this rationalization!
- tjogin 16y ago
  I didn't even comment on this specific case. I just wanted to point out that, contrary to what you claimed, John Gruber have in fact criticized Apple quite a bit, and especially on the topic of their App Store regulations. To claim that he always agrees with Apple is simply either uninformed, or a lie.
  - TillE 16y ago
    Yes, Gruber is generally decent (except when it comes to Android, where he seizes every available opportunity to make snide, petty, uninformed remarks). But everyone else here is talking about this specific case, which, as you suggest, seems startlingly out-of-character for him.
  - jessedhillon 16y ago
    I didn't say he never disagrees with Apple. I said that he frequently does agree with them and that he often goes to absurd extents to justify positions that seem contrary to common sense. I said that he used tortured logic to arrive at these positions, and that he can be counted on reliably to agree with Apple. Glenn Beck occasionally disagrees with the Republicans too but I bet I know how he'll vote in most elections.
  - smackfu 16y ago
    He is sometimes critical, true, when the critical mass goes against Apple, but his sneering pro-Apple stance 99% of the time is insufferable. It seems like 50% of his posts are about iPad competitors.
- msie 16y ago
  To say then, that Readability is creating content is ridiculous. They are transforming existing content -- there is no comparison between them and, say, Amazon... Amazon isn't creating content either. They are reformatting books into the Kindle format. Which is similar to what Readability does.
  - erohead 16y ago
jerome_bent 16y ago
There is a difference between criticizing the implementation of a policy (e.g. the AppStore review process is too slow, the AppStore review process sometimes makes embarrassing mistakes) and criticizing the policy itself (e.g. Apple's control over the AppStore is a bad thing). Gruber (and Marco et al) might criticize specific tactics by Apple but the Mac pundits largely agree with the strategy and the goals—whatever the strategy or goals may be.
- tjogin 16y ago
  That's simply not true either. John Gruber and other Apple pundits often disagree vehemently with Apple's strategy and their offers. Remember when Steve Jobs presented the first third-party developer solution for iPhone: web apps? "If all you have to offer is a shit sandwich, just say it. Don’t tell us how lucky we are and that it’s going to taste delicious." - John Gruber http://daringfireball.net/2007/06/wwdc_2007_keynote http://daringfireball.net/2007/06/wwdc_2007_keynote
  - jerome_bent 16y ago
    You're confusing a strategy (i.e. provide a way for developers to make apps within Apple's rules) to a tactic (i.e. only make web apps, not native apps). It's worth noting that Gruber would later defend Apple's decision to initially offer only web app development because, according to Gruber, obviously the tools for native apps were just not ready and the AppStore was still in development. By Gruber's own admission, he wants Apple to succeed. Everything else is secondary.
    - tjogin 16y ago
      You're splitting hairs. Or rather, drawing arbitrary lines in the sand. And how could anyone in their right mind not defend Apple's choice to at the time not offer tools that didn't exist then? That doesn't make you biased, it makes you reasonable. He has also admitted that he wants Google and Android to succeed. That doesn't mean he agrees with all their strategies, no matter how selectively you want to define "strategy".

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]