5 ms·

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-employed' is vague and this kind of reclassification is not limited to Uber. If you try contracting as a coder for example, you are likely to get reclassified as an employee. And then you have to prove you are not. Which you aren't going to be able to, because a self-employed working through a brokerage isn't radically different from a consultant working through a consultancy. So in that case you are going to have to pay a lot of back taxes. The point is: if too many people start working for exchange sites, they will also get sued and be classified as employees, just so the state can get its dues.

nerdponx 7y ago
This depends heavily on the tax laws in a particular jurisdiction.
- timwaagh 7y ago
  Yes. Some (mostly) very low tax places won't have this problem. But there are reasons for it. There is the underlying principle that government likes to incentivice new business creation over just taking a job someone else could have gotten. There is also the issue that dodging tax is easier for one man business than employees so if you want to tax them at all you have to be a bit lenient.
aikah 7y ago
> The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. You forgot to disclose the fact that they are getting many perks like properly funding their public pensions while working for Uber AND getting access to regular unemployment funds. The advantages absolutely out-weight the drawbacks in France. And they are guaranteed a minimum wage, legal contract framework which means that Uber cannot fire them on the spot and so on and so forth. The only loser here is Uber, not the driver, if Uber were to chose to continue doing business in France.
- timwaagh 7y ago
  We shall see how French uber drivers will fare in future but I don't share your optimism.
volent 7y ago
You don't pay more taxes as an employee than you do when self-employed AFAIK.
gjulianm 7y ago
Several things: First, you say "more rights" as if that was just a detail. But paid vacations, sick/paternity/family leave, minimum wage, pensions, social security, right to strike, unemployment benefits and the like are not just a minor thing. > If you try contracting as a coder for example, you are likely to get reclassified as an employee. I have worked as a freelance through some brokerages/exchanges (e.g. Upwork) and there you set your own rates, your own conditions, and your own clients. I think it's a pretty different framework than Uber. The issue is not brokerage/exchange or not, it's who controls the terms of the labour done.
- timwaagh 7y ago
  It is a 'detail' not to us but from the perspective of the government. You are still pretty likely to get pursued by the tax services for 'freelancing'. At least where I live. I hope you manage to slip through the net though :)
benibela 7y ago
Employees get a lot more benefits than self-employed. Health care insurance, sick days, vacations and pensions. I do not know about France, but in Germany, employees only pay half of their healthcare insurance fees. And only their wage is subject to the healthcare insurance "tax", while self-employed people need to pay the tax on all incomes, including investment incomes
smcphile 7y ago
>> If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. This is not the case in France. Self-employed people still pay personal income tax and/or a tax on company profits. The increased taxes on employees as compared to the self-employed is mainly due to paying for the infrastructure and cost of providing extra benefits to employees, like unemployment insurance, vacation pay, better pensions, etc. The term for these taxes are “charges sociales”, meaning they’re used for providing social services. The increased taxes are not used for building roads, paying for the armed forces, or things like that. Other taxes pay for that. If everyone in France were self-employed, a very few government services providing social services (like Pole Emploi) might cease to exist, but most government services would be entirely unaffected.
- timwaagh 7y ago
  Same here. It turns out west Europe doesn't differ that much on these issues. In fact your answer only strengthens my conviction this is a major underlying reason. You think the French government would take it on the chin and just accept for example not being able to pay pensions? From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, total would be something like 65%) while self employed pay 12% to 23%.
  - smcphile 7y ago
    No, the French government would not accept not being able to pay pensions. But the French government would still be able to pay pensions, even if everyone were self-employed. The self-employed do already pay into pensions. Additionally, while there are currently 42 different pension plans in France, depending on your line of work, under Macron there's an evolution towards having just one government pension plan for everyone. The new system will be based on building up points which can be cashed in on retirement. It will probably start for those who retire starting in 2035. So in the future the pension plan will be the same for everyone, self-employed or employee.
    - timwaagh 7y ago
parasight 7y ago
Are self-employed people paying less taxes per se in France?

nerdponx 7y ago

This depends heavily on the tax laws in a particular jurisdiction.

timwaagh 7y ago
Yes. Some (mostly) very low tax places won't have this problem. But there are reasons for it. There is the underlying principle that government likes to incentivice new business creation over just taking a job someone else could have gotten. There is also the issue that dodging tax is easier for one man business than employees so if you want to tax them at all you have to be a bit lenient.

aikah 7y ago

> The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. You forgot to disclose the fact that they are getting many perks like properly funding their public pensions while working for Uber AND getting access to regular unemployment funds. The advantages absolutely out-weight the drawbacks in France. And they are guaranteed a minimum wage, legal contract framework which means that Uber cannot fire them on the spot and so on and so forth. The only loser here is Uber, not the driver, if Uber were to chose to continue doing business in France.

timwaagh 7y ago
We shall see how French uber drivers will fare in future but I don't share your optimism.

volent 7y ago

You don't pay more taxes as an employee than you do when self-employed AFAIK.

gjulianm 7y ago

Several things: First, you say "more rights" as if that was just a detail. But paid vacations, sick/paternity/family leave, minimum wage, pensions, social security, right to strike, unemployment benefits and the like are not just a minor thing. > If you try contracting as a coder for example, you are likely to get reclassified as an employee. I have worked as a freelance through some brokerages/exchanges (e.g. Upwork) and there you set your own rates, your own conditions, and your own clients. I think it's a pretty different framework than Uber. The issue is not brokerage/exchange or not, it's who controls the terms of the labour done.

timwaagh 7y ago
It is a 'detail' not to us but from the perspective of the government. You are still pretty likely to get pursued by the tax services for 'freelancing'. At least where I live. I hope you manage to slip through the net though :)

benibela 7y ago

Employees get a lot more benefits than self-employed. Health care insurance, sick days, vacations and pensions. I do not know about France, but in Germany, employees only pay half of their healthcare insurance fees. And only their wage is subject to the healthcare insurance "tax", while self-employed people need to pay the tax on all incomes, including investment incomes

smcphile 7y ago

>> If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. This is not the case in France. Self-employed people still pay personal income tax and/or a tax on company profits. The increased taxes on employees as compared to the self-employed is mainly due to paying for the infrastructure and cost of providing extra benefits to employees, like unemployment insurance, vacation pay, better pensions, etc. The term for these taxes are “charges sociales”, meaning they’re used for providing social services. The increased taxes are not used for building roads, paying for the armed forces, or things like that. Other taxes pay for that. If everyone in France were self-employed, a very few government services providing social services (like Pole Emploi) might cease to exist, but most government services would be entirely unaffected.

timwaagh 7y ago
Same here. It turns out west Europe doesn't differ that much on these issues. In fact your answer only strengthens my conviction this is a major underlying reason. You think the French government would take it on the chin and just accept for example not being able to pay pensions? From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, total would be something like 65%) while self employed pay 12% to 23%.
- smcphile 7y ago
  No, the French government would not accept not being able to pay pensions. But the French government would still be able to pay pensions, even if everyone were self-employed. The self-employed do already pay into pensions. Additionally, while there are currently 42 different pension plans in France, depending on your line of work, under Macron there's an evolution towards having just one government pension plan for everyone. The new system will be based on building up points which can be cashed in on retirement. It will probably start for those who retire starting in 2035. So in the future the pension plan will be the same for everyone, self-employed or employee.
  - timwaagh 7y ago

parasight 7y ago

Are self-employed people paying less taxes per se in France?