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With age I came to conclusion that anything making killing of any kind even remotely fun is utterly wrong. It might be necessary with dangerous insects, but it

With age I came to conclusion that anything making killing of any kind even remotely fun is utterly wrong. It might be necessary with dangerous insects, but it should not be fun or recreational.

lidHanteyk 7y ago
It is a question of scale. Vaccination is usually a light, kind, touching moment between a nurse and a patient; vaccines have been behind the attempted eradication of several species. Gardening is often seen as a quiet, pastoral, contemplative practice; crop selection has permanently altered the global climate (via disruption of water and nitrogen cycles) and invasive species have permanently altered local habitats. I have yet to meet the Jain who has studied cellular biology.
ravenstine 7y ago
How did you come to that conclusion?
- zarmin 7y ago
  `brew upgrade morality`
  - Cerium 7y ago
    When I was your age, we had to compile morality ourselves.
    - pseudosudoer 7y ago
      The README was quite outdated though, and wasn't cross-culturally compatible since it was rewritten several times...
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      Back in my day we bought our morality in books that we'd have to hand-transcribe into our moral compasses. One typo, and whoops, now you're a sociopath.
scohesc 7y ago
Better not discover video games then!
objectivetruth 7y ago
I'm curious if you grew up and/or ever lived in an environment with a serious insect problem. Even the common housefly is just a "mere annoyance" one at a time... but dozens or hundreds can have significant effects on physical and mental health. I'm a huge softie about mammals, birds, reptiles... but I am OK with the complete and total extermination of all insect life inside my domicile.
- testuser66 7y ago
  Everyone that is fully against killing insects has likely never lived anywhere that has insects.
  - carapace 7y ago
    OP isn't "fully against killing insects", just said that "it should not be fun or recreational."
ses1984 7y ago
I can see how this would be more effective in some areas of my home than a fly swatter, where you can't wind up easily. Fly swatter work because their arc surprises flies (in my experience). If you find it fun to use or repugnant that's a personal thing. Flies are yucky pests that I don't want to have around.
- sunbear-lover 7y ago
  I think also the flyswatter works because it does not displace air the same way that your hand does when you're trying to smack a fly with it. Flies can tell when something is headed their way because they feel the air move.
some_random 7y ago
This is a really interesting position, I'm interested in how you arrived at it. Do you think that if killing something is fun it will result in more things being killed, or is your issue more fundamentally with the idea of killing being fun?
- Brain_Thief 7y ago
  Not OP, but I share his / her perspective. My reasoning is that the act of killing is a serious and irreversible decision that should not in any way be trivialized. Furthermore, a full evaluation of the consequences of killing should not be deflected, distorted, or colored by something like amusement. Since killing is a necessary part of life (others mentioned vaccines, food production, and gardening below) it seems important to foster a sober and cautious attitude toward the act so as to prevent unnecessary loss of life; the "gamification" of death, even in trivial cases such as with the salt gun, does not appear to promote a sober attitude toward killing. Essentially, my stance is that there is a difference between accepting an action as necessary and engaging with it as needed and making said action fun / associating it with enjoyment. I don't count video games as part of the issue for the moment since, at least currently, it does not seem like the characters and units that populate video games are in any sense alive. This may change, however, and if it does then I expect radical consequences will unfold.
- jmiskovic 7y ago
  My own answer is through rational empathy. You might not think much of small annoying insect, but it is still orders of magnitude more complex than anything humanity has ever built. Destroying such marvelous system just for target practice feels like being a dick, and I refrain from it. It is a hard ethical dilemma and any line you draw will be arbitrary. Some people hunt rhinos, some catch fish or shoot birds as past-time, while others get sense of satisfaction from gunning down insects. I still condone pest control, but I draw the line at reasons like "for fun", or "because I'm bored", or "to feel more powerful". The intention/reason is important, because it affects the future. If you do it for fun, you have no reason to ever stop or to consider alternatives once they are made possible. To answer another post, I think killing in video games is completely OK and something I often enjoy doing. I'm also enjoying the tone you've set for discussion and I'd like to hear your personal views.
TruthSHIFT 7y ago
Unlike a vast majority of other animals, studies seem to indicate that insects are not capable of feeling pain and suffering. Killing insects is effectively just killing robots.
- ZoomZoomZoom 7y ago
  Do you think that augmenting human brain to not feel pain would permit killing?
- KineticLensman 7y ago
  > studies seem to indicate that insects are not capable of feeling pain and suffering All of the articles (e.g. [0]) I found in a quick search in response to this citation-free assertion suggested that the answer is more nuanced that that. I'd also observe that higher primates (e.g. chimps) that have pain mechanisms that are biologically very similar to ours can have a very different response to us. If you watch film of social interactions of chimps, e.g. [1], it's a fairly routine occurrence for an individual to apparently ignore injuries that would have a human screaming (e.g. a finger partially severed in a fight with a rival), especially if it would affect their hierarchical status to run away. So I wouldn't read too much into observed behaviour as an indicator of what is actually going on, at least for primates. [0] https://reducing-suffering.org/do-bugs-feel-pain/ https://reducing-suffering.org/do-bugs-feel-pain/ [1] https://monkeyworld.org/monkey-life/ https://monkeyworld.org/monkey-life/

With age I came to conclusion that anything making killing of any kind even remotely fun is utterly wrong. It might be necessary with dangerous insects, but it should not be fun or recreational.

lidHanteyk 7y ago

It is a question of scale. Vaccination is usually a light, kind, touching moment between a nurse and a patient; vaccines have been behind the attempted eradication of several species. Gardening is often seen as a quiet, pastoral, contemplative practice; crop selection has permanently altered the global climate (via disruption of water and nitrogen cycles) and invasive species have permanently altered local habitats. I have yet to meet the Jain who has studied cellular biology.

ravenstine 7y ago

How did you come to that conclusion?

zarmin 7y ago
`brew upgrade morality`
- Cerium 7y ago
  When I was your age, we had to compile morality ourselves.
  - pseudosudoer 7y ago
    The README was quite outdated though, and wasn't cross-culturally compatible since it was rewritten several times...
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    Back in my day we bought our morality in books that we'd have to hand-transcribe into our moral compasses. One typo, and whoops, now you're a sociopath.

scohesc 7y ago

Better not discover video games then!

objectivetruth 7y ago

I'm curious if you grew up and/or ever lived in an environment with a serious insect problem. Even the common housefly is just a "mere annoyance" one at a time... but dozens or hundreds can have significant effects on physical and mental health. I'm a huge softie about mammals, birds, reptiles... but I am OK with the complete and total extermination of all insect life inside my domicile.

testuser66 7y ago
Everyone that is fully against killing insects has likely never lived anywhere that has insects.
- carapace 7y ago
  OP isn't "fully against killing insects", just said that "it should not be fun or recreational."

ses1984 7y ago

I can see how this would be more effective in some areas of my home than a fly swatter, where you can't wind up easily. Fly swatter work because their arc surprises flies (in my experience). If you find it fun to use or repugnant that's a personal thing. Flies are yucky pests that I don't want to have around.

sunbear-lover 7y ago
I think also the flyswatter works because it does not displace air the same way that your hand does when you're trying to smack a fly with it. Flies can tell when something is headed their way because they feel the air move.

some_random 7y ago

This is a really interesting position, I'm interested in how you arrived at it. Do you think that if killing something is fun it will result in more things being killed, or is your issue more fundamentally with the idea of killing being fun?

Brain_Thief 7y ago
Not OP, but I share his / her perspective. My reasoning is that the act of killing is a serious and irreversible decision that should not in any way be trivialized. Furthermore, a full evaluation of the consequences of killing should not be deflected, distorted, or colored by something like amusement. Since killing is a necessary part of life (others mentioned vaccines, food production, and gardening below) it seems important to foster a sober and cautious attitude toward the act so as to prevent unnecessary loss of life; the "gamification" of death, even in trivial cases such as with the salt gun, does not appear to promote a sober attitude toward killing. Essentially, my stance is that there is a difference between accepting an action as necessary and engaging with it as needed and making said action fun / associating it with enjoyment. I don't count video games as part of the issue for the moment since, at least currently, it does not seem like the characters and units that populate video games are in any sense alive. This may change, however, and if it does then I expect radical consequences will unfold.
jmiskovic 7y ago
My own answer is through rational empathy. You might not think much of small annoying insect, but it is still orders of magnitude more complex than anything humanity has ever built. Destroying such marvelous system just for target practice feels like being a dick, and I refrain from it. It is a hard ethical dilemma and any line you draw will be arbitrary. Some people hunt rhinos, some catch fish or shoot birds as past-time, while others get sense of satisfaction from gunning down insects. I still condone pest control, but I draw the line at reasons like "for fun", or "because I'm bored", or "to feel more powerful". The intention/reason is important, because it affects the future. If you do it for fun, you have no reason to ever stop or to consider alternatives once they are made possible. To answer another post, I think killing in video games is completely OK and something I often enjoy doing. I'm also enjoying the tone you've set for discussion and I'd like to hear your personal views.

TruthSHIFT 7y ago

Unlike a vast majority of other animals, studies seem to indicate that insects are not capable of feeling pain and suffering. Killing insects is effectively just killing robots.

ZoomZoomZoom 7y ago
Do you think that augmenting human brain to not feel pain would permit killing?
KineticLensman 7y ago
> studies seem to indicate that insects are not capable of feeling pain and suffering All of the articles (e.g. [0]) I found in a quick search in response to this citation-free assertion suggested that the answer is more nuanced that that. I'd also observe that higher primates (e.g. chimps) that have pain mechanisms that are biologically very similar to ours can have a very different response to us. If you watch film of social interactions of chimps, e.g. [1], it's a fairly routine occurrence for an individual to apparently ignore injuries that would have a human screaming (e.g. a finger partially severed in a fight with a rival), especially if it would affect their hierarchical status to run away. So I wouldn't read too much into observed behaviour as an indicator of what is actually going on, at least for primates. [0] https://reducing-suffering.org/do-bugs-feel-pain/ https://reducing-suffering.org/do-bugs-feel-pain/ [1] https://monkeyworld.org/monkey-life/ https://monkeyworld.org/monkey-life/