3 ms·

As an individual, I can decide to not work on such things. Didn't Google employees take a stand against something similar? and Google had to backtrack.

EGreg 7y ago
If someone else works on it, then it will still happen. And what then?
- girishso 7y ago
  Of course it will happen. It's like atomic energy, some physicists decided to not work on it and some did work on it. There's nothing we can do about it.
- lallysingh 7y ago
  Often there's a talent penalty to morally questionable projects.
  - jmnicolas 7y ago
    It depends on how you frame the "morally questionable projects". There's no talent shortage for 5G. I see no talent shortage for special forces that go in foreign countries to maim and kill all in the name of freedom and democracy.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    That just means they're crude and oppressive as opposed to smooth and oppressive. If you're expecting the market to fix this problem, it won't.
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    companies are perfectly capable of compartmentalizing information and also adapt/evolve their messaging so it never looks as bad from the inside. this works for both very large companies and start-ups. And rational, smart employees can still be gamed with the simplest of tricks, e.g. "What the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove." -- Robert Anton Wilson https://www.seriouswonder.com/raw-what-the-thinker-thinks-the-prover-will-prove/ https://www.seriouswonder.com/raw-what-the-thinker-thinks-th...
DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
I not only understand this sentiment but also live myself by these rules. But for every person who refuses to work on this type of tech there are hundreds ready to fill the gap and happy to defend and gaslight critics. We've been playing this game since decades[1] and the pace has been accelerating (and keeps on doing so). There is no way to stop this because the state always plays the long game, and the odds are rigged against us. [1] Jacques Ellul "The Technological Society" (pdf) https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSociety https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci... [2] James C. Scott "The Art of Not being Governed" (pdf) https://libcom.org/files/Art.pdf https://libcom.org/files/Art.pdf [3] James C. Scott "Seeing Like a State" https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-state https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-state / pdf: https://libcom.org/files/Seeing%20Like%20a%20State%20-%20James%20C.%20Scott.pdf https://libcom.org/files/Seeing%20Like%20a%20State%20-%20Jam...
- voldacar 7y ago
  I will always upvote James C. Scott. More people on this site should read his stuff
  - trevyn 7y ago
    Agree. I haven’t read all of Seeing Like a State yet, but it does contain quite a few hints about how to protect yourself from the power of states. For example, states like to make their subjects “legible” to the state in specific ways, so deliberately becoming illegible is a defense mechanism. Personally, I have been enjoying that the facial mask has surely been making facial recognition more challenging, though of course this is short-lived.
- greedo 7y ago
  Not only have we been playing this game for decades, because of the ratcheting effect of so many privacy infringements, it's almost impossible to go back to a happier time.

EGreg 7y ago

If someone else works on it, then it will still happen. And what then?

girishso 7y ago
Of course it will happen. It's like atomic energy, some physicists decided to not work on it and some did work on it. There's nothing we can do about it.
lallysingh 7y ago
Often there's a talent penalty to morally questionable projects.
- jmnicolas 7y ago
  It depends on how you frame the "morally questionable projects". There's no talent shortage for 5G. I see no talent shortage for special forces that go in foreign countries to maim and kill all in the name of freedom and democracy.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  That just means they're crude and oppressive as opposed to smooth and oppressive. If you're expecting the market to fix this problem, it won't.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  companies are perfectly capable of compartmentalizing information and also adapt/evolve their messaging so it never looks as bad from the inside. this works for both very large companies and start-ups. And rational, smart employees can still be gamed with the simplest of tricks, e.g. "What the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove." -- Robert Anton Wilson https://www.seriouswonder.com/raw-what-the-thinker-thinks-the-prover-will-prove/ https://www.seriouswonder.com/raw-what-the-thinker-thinks-th...

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago

I not only understand this sentiment but also live myself by these rules. But for every person who refuses to work on this type of tech there are hundreds ready to fill the gap and happy to defend and gaslight critics. We've been playing this game since decades[1] and the pace has been accelerating (and keeps on doing so). There is no way to stop this because the state always plays the long game, and the odds are rigged against us. [1] Jacques Ellul "The Technological Society" (pdf) https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSociety https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci... [2] James C. Scott "The Art of Not being Governed" (pdf) https://libcom.org/files/Art.pdf https://libcom.org/files/Art.pdf [3] James C. Scott "Seeing Like a State" https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-state https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-state / pdf: https://libcom.org/files/Seeing%20Like%20a%20State%20-%20James%20C.%20Scott.pdf https://libcom.org/files/Seeing%20Like%20a%20State%20-%20Jam...

voldacar 7y ago
I will always upvote James C. Scott. More people on this site should read his stuff
- trevyn 7y ago
  Agree. I haven’t read all of Seeing Like a State yet, but it does contain quite a few hints about how to protect yourself from the power of states. For example, states like to make their subjects “legible” to the state in specific ways, so deliberately becoming illegible is a defense mechanism. Personally, I have been enjoying that the facial mask has surely been making facial recognition more challenging, though of course this is short-lived.
greedo 7y ago
Not only have we been playing this game for decades, because of the ratcheting effect of so many privacy infringements, it's almost impossible to go back to a happier time.