6 ms·

I think she could buy insurance if she really wanted. I've thought about this a lot because I could easily be in this situation. If I did anything on my own I

by sammcd 16y ago

I think she could buy insurance if she really wanted. I've thought about this a lot because I could easily be in this situation. If I did anything on my own I would need a group plan quickly. You only need 2 people to create a group. So you can buy insurance its expensive, here is how you do it. 1) Start a company. 2) Hire another employee (this costs a lot) 3) Make a group health insurance policy for the company. There you bought insurance. I know this is stupid, but I'm just the kind of person that when someone says "You can't do XXX" I automatically have to see if I can do it.

krschultz 16y ago
It's not the difference between a family and a company, its the size of the group. Thus the costs for a company with 10,000 people is far different than a company with 10. Also, if you have a group of 2,5,10 or 20, the insurance company has an easier time denying you because if you get pissed and drop them, its not a big loss for them. In contrast, if you deny the right person at a 10,000 person company, they lose a big account.
- rapind 16y ago
  As a group you have more leverage purchasing pretty much any service. I wonder what it would take to put together a group buy app for health insurance.
  - kooshball 16y ago
    > As a group you have more leverage purchasing pretty much any service although this is true, the leverage gained through group is different for other services, where a bulk order is much cheaper. Assuming everyone's making rational decisions, the only people that would want insurance would be the high risk ones. Insurance companies would loss money regardless of the rates they charge because the only rational people that would pay it would be the ones that think they would likely benefit from it, since they have additional information (eating habit, risk level, etc ) over the insurance company. By putting a lot of people (high risk and low risk) in a group, the insurance company can balance out the group and make a small gain on top of the expected payout.
    - JabavuAdams 16y ago
      You're not considering the value of the "float" that insurance companies get. I.e. they get your money up front, but only have to pay out later. This is a huge advantage.
    - prodigal_erik 16y ago
      Even healthy people are made out of meat, which is the ultimate pre-existing condition. Are there really a significant number of people who think it's rational not to seek insurance, as opposed to not having enough income to meet the market price?
- wtracy 16y ago
  Actually, has anyone tried banding a group of startups together until they have several thousand employees, then buy insurance as a bloc? Another idea I've kicked around: Create a sort-of incubator where, on paper, all of the startup founders and employees are employees of the incubator group. Then the incubator can handle the whole mess of both insurance and income taxes. (Bonus: Since the "incubator" now has a ton of developers on tap, it could double as a consulting agency.)
  - hoprocker 16y ago
    Haven't much looked into this (being as it now pertains to me, maybe I should!), but the Freelancers Union was making a bit of news last year[1]. Also, there are HR-outsourcing companies like TriNet that negotiate as a group for smaller/startup companies[2]. 1. http://www.freelancersunion.org/ http://www.freelancersunion.org/ 2. http://www.trinet.com/about_us/default.htm http://www.trinet.com/about_us/default.htm
    - noisebleed 16y ago
      I've been using Freelancers for about a year, paying ~350/month for a decent PPO and dental. Not incredible, but it's the best option I could find apart from high deductible plans. NY only unfortunately, and I'm not aware of any similar things elsewhere.
  - rubeng 16y ago
    I work for a PEO -- Professional Employer Organization -- and that's essentially what we do. Clients that come onboard with a co-employment contract for their employees. We pay their employees, our clients pay us and we become the employer (in most states though laws are always changing). This means we have 90k employees that help us negotiate some pretty good rates for Benefit plans. It's actually a pretty decent way for a smaller company to offer benefits to their employees that are competitive to larger companies. We do try to take on companies of a minimum size (10+ employees) but sometimes end up taking on companies with 2 or 3 employees because the owner forecasts explosive growth -- which never happens. All that said, it's a freaking battle with the carriers every year to try to keep the increases at a lower rate. Also, we have "rate buckets" where we place clients according to risk and past medical history of its employees. It still tends to work out better than if they would attempt to get insurance on their own.
cookiecaper 16y ago
A two-person group is not going to fare much better than an individual plan, and I'm not so sure that there are that many companies that accept two-person groups anyway.
- joeag 16y ago
  Not true in CA anyway, you can have a 2 person company and apply for small employer group coverage. You can't be denied for pre-existing conditions and your rates have to be within 10% of larger group rates.
- sammcd 16y ago
  I work at a company with a 2 person group and it fared much better than an individual plan.
- marshray 16y ago
  Yeah I think you'd need to hire about 49 more people before you had a substantial group going.
MoreMoschops 16y ago
If the insurance company suspects that you've done something like this, they will wait until you need to claim (so they can take in the premiums) and then deny a payout on the basis that you formed a company purely to get round having been denied insurance. Every day, insurance companies look for ways to deny payouts, and they've thought of this one.
- sammcd 16y ago
  In no way did I say make a fake company. You'd have to start a real company to do this.
  - EliRivers 16y ago
    If you create a completely real company with the driving intention to get yourself health insurance because you can't or won't do it as an individual, it won't matter how real the company is. The insurers will decline to pay out.
wtn 16y ago
My auto insurance company (it operates like a cooperative) provides a group plan for members to purchase health insurance. (Coverage is provided by an external company). My auto insurance company also runs a savings bank for its members and offers loans at markedly better rates than retail banks. Consumer cooperatives would seem the simplest way to alleviate this issue--no need for additional legislation. To confirm, I live in the US.
- alanfalcon 16y ago
  What's your auto insurance company?
  - wtn 16y ago
    USAA
troels 16y ago
The idea isn't that stupid. You just need to be more than 2 people. Is there any reason why a group of self-employed people can't go together and get insurance as a group? If the group is relatively homogenous and are able to pay the bills, surely the insurance companies would be interested?

by sammcd 16y ago

krschultz 16y ago

It's not the difference between a family and a company, its the size of the group. Thus the costs for a company with 10,000 people is far different than a company with 10. Also, if you have a group of 2,5,10 or 20, the insurance company has an easier time denying you because if you get pissed and drop them, its not a big loss for them. In contrast, if you deny the right person at a 10,000 person company, they lose a big account.

rapind 16y ago
As a group you have more leverage purchasing pretty much any service. I wonder what it would take to put together a group buy app for health insurance.
- kooshball 16y ago
  > As a group you have more leverage purchasing pretty much any service although this is true, the leverage gained through group is different for other services, where a bulk order is much cheaper. Assuming everyone's making rational decisions, the only people that would want insurance would be the high risk ones. Insurance companies would loss money regardless of the rates they charge because the only rational people that would pay it would be the ones that think they would likely benefit from it, since they have additional information (eating habit, risk level, etc ) over the insurance company. By putting a lot of people (high risk and low risk) in a group, the insurance company can balance out the group and make a small gain on top of the expected payout.
  - JabavuAdams 16y ago
    You're not considering the value of the "float" that insurance companies get. I.e. they get your money up front, but only have to pay out later. This is a huge advantage.
  - prodigal_erik 16y ago
    Even healthy people are made out of meat, which is the ultimate pre-existing condition. Are there really a significant number of people who think it's rational not to seek insurance, as opposed to not having enough income to meet the market price?
wtracy 16y ago
Actually, has anyone tried banding a group of startups together until they have several thousand employees, then buy insurance as a bloc? Another idea I've kicked around: Create a sort-of incubator where, on paper, all of the startup founders and employees are employees of the incubator group. Then the incubator can handle the whole mess of both insurance and income taxes. (Bonus: Since the "incubator" now has a ton of developers on tap, it could double as a consulting agency.)
- hoprocker 16y ago
  Haven't much looked into this (being as it now pertains to me, maybe I should!), but the Freelancers Union was making a bit of news last year[1]. Also, there are HR-outsourcing companies like TriNet that negotiate as a group for smaller/startup companies[2]. 1. http://www.freelancersunion.org/ http://www.freelancersunion.org/ 2. http://www.trinet.com/about_us/default.htm http://www.trinet.com/about_us/default.htm
  - noisebleed 16y ago
    I've been using Freelancers for about a year, paying ~350/month for a decent PPO and dental. Not incredible, but it's the best option I could find apart from high deductible plans. NY only unfortunately, and I'm not aware of any similar things elsewhere.
- rubeng 16y ago
  I work for a PEO -- Professional Employer Organization -- and that's essentially what we do. Clients that come onboard with a co-employment contract for their employees. We pay their employees, our clients pay us and we become the employer (in most states though laws are always changing). This means we have 90k employees that help us negotiate some pretty good rates for Benefit plans. It's actually a pretty decent way for a smaller company to offer benefits to their employees that are competitive to larger companies. We do try to take on companies of a minimum size (10+ employees) but sometimes end up taking on companies with 2 or 3 employees because the owner forecasts explosive growth -- which never happens. All that said, it's a freaking battle with the carriers every year to try to keep the increases at a lower rate. Also, we have "rate buckets" where we place clients according to risk and past medical history of its employees. It still tends to work out better than if they would attempt to get insurance on their own.

cookiecaper 16y ago

A two-person group is not going to fare much better than an individual plan, and I'm not so sure that there are that many companies that accept two-person groups anyway.

joeag 16y ago
Not true in CA anyway, you can have a 2 person company and apply for small employer group coverage. You can't be denied for pre-existing conditions and your rates have to be within 10% of larger group rates.
sammcd 16y ago
I work at a company with a 2 person group and it fared much better than an individual plan.
marshray 16y ago
Yeah I think you'd need to hire about 49 more people before you had a substantial group going.

MoreMoschops 16y ago

If the insurance company suspects that you've done something like this, they will wait until you need to claim (so they can take in the premiums) and then deny a payout on the basis that you formed a company purely to get round having been denied insurance. Every day, insurance companies look for ways to deny payouts, and they've thought of this one.

sammcd 16y ago
In no way did I say make a fake company. You'd have to start a real company to do this.
- EliRivers 16y ago
  If you create a completely real company with the driving intention to get yourself health insurance because you can't or won't do it as an individual, it won't matter how real the company is. The insurers will decline to pay out.

wtn 16y ago

My auto insurance company (it operates like a cooperative) provides a group plan for members to purchase health insurance. (Coverage is provided by an external company). My auto insurance company also runs a savings bank for its members and offers loans at markedly better rates than retail banks. Consumer cooperatives would seem the simplest way to alleviate this issue--no need for additional legislation. To confirm, I live in the US.

alanfalcon 16y ago
What's your auto insurance company?
- wtn 16y ago
  USAA

troels 16y ago

The idea isn't that stupid. You just need to be more than 2 people. Is there any reason why a group of self-employed people can't go together and get insurance as a group? If the group is relatively homogenous and are able to pay the bills, surely the insurance companies would be interested?