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I think it's hacker news because hackers struggling to become ramen-profitable (or even just thinking about it!) are directly affected by the cost and availabil

by acabal 16y ago

I think it's hacker news because hackers struggling to become ramen-profitable (or even just thinking about it!) are directly affected by the cost and availability of health insurance. It's a big factor for many people in deciding whether they want to quit their cube jobs that keep them insured to strike out on their own.

krschultz 16y ago
I'm well aware of this, in fact I made the exact same point higher up in this discussion, but as much as I love politics (and thats not sarcasm, I'm probably even more into politics than technology, I've actively campaigned, gone on TV & radio for interviews about politics etc) this is not a site I come to for politics.
DanielBMarkham 16y ago
It's a big factor for many people in deciding whether they want to quit their cube jobs that keep them insured to strike out on their own. And I think that's total bullshit and people who don't want to strike out won't and will find lots of reasons not to, while people who want to strike out will, and figure out how to make it work. Kind of takes us to a rhetorical dead end, since we're both wildly speculating about what some imaginary people we dream up might or might not do. All we're really doing is inventing examples to support opinions that we've already decided to hold. Look -- I think health insurance needs fixing. I also think the current solution is so bad we should fire every Congressman who voted for it and run them out of town on a rail. I further believe that if two reasonable people sat down, they'd find that most of us really aren't that far apart on the issues. But this looks like picking a fight. For no reason.
- acabal 16y ago
  One of my good friends is a mechanical engineer, young, single, and healthy, but with a thyroid problem. He requires pills every day for the rest of his life. He would not be able to afford those pills for long without insurance if he quit his cube job and tried to innovate in his field: high efficiency engines and biofuels. These aren't imaginary people.
  - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
    I haven't had health insurance in over 10 years. I get sick, my family loses everything. During that time I've been self-employed and worked on several startups. You think telling me a story about your friend is somehow going to enlighten me on the subject of health insurance? How many anecdotes would we need to share to gain any ground in this discussion?
    - krschultz 16y ago
      That sounds incredibly selfish. This is what will actually happen if you get sick enough that your family loses everything: you will go to a hospital, you will get covered by the hospital because you can't be denied for lack of insurance coverage, and then the hospital will never recoup its expenses. Of course this also means you will have bankrupted your family. Why?
    - wtracy 16y ago
      From your earlier post: <i>while people who want to strike out will, and figure out how to make it work.</i> You claim that anyone who wants to be self-employed is able to do so. The next post provides a counterexample to your blanket statement. Then you get angry that he's telling an "anecdote"?
      - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
        Let me see if I understand what you're saying. I make a generalization that people who want to will form a startup regardless of circumstances. The counterpoint to that was providing an example of somebody who didn't form a startup because of some condition. That's known as a counter-factual: taking what actually happened and changing something and saying that it would come out differently had this one thing changed. Sure, the person in question says that's the reason, but my entire point rests on the fact that people will rationalize. I, on the other hand, provide a _real_ example of somebody without insurance who has formed a startup, and on top of that I'm the one saying that both of these stories don't tell us much. So where am I in error? Counter-factuals are horrible ways to argue, and anecdotes don't get us anywhere, no matter which point they support, and the conversation isn't really going anywhere. In fact, this entire sub-thread started when I announced that this looked to me like a fruitless line of discussion. I flagged the story. So you agree, right? Or are you trying to say that somehow there is some progress being made that I missed out on?
teyc 16y ago
So true. There was another article on HN about the Danish welfare system and how it encourages people to go out on their own and take business risks because basic things like healthcare isn't out of reach.

by acabal 16y ago

krschultz 16y ago

I'm well aware of this, in fact I made the exact same point higher up in this discussion, but as much as I love politics (and thats not sarcasm, I'm probably even more into politics than technology, I've actively campaigned, gone on TV & radio for interviews about politics etc) this is not a site I come to for politics.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago

It's a big factor for many people in deciding whether they want to quit their cube jobs that keep them insured to strike out on their own. And I think that's total bullshit and people who don't want to strike out won't and will find lots of reasons not to, while people who want to strike out will, and figure out how to make it work. Kind of takes us to a rhetorical dead end, since we're both wildly speculating about what some imaginary people we dream up might or might not do. All we're really doing is inventing examples to support opinions that we've already decided to hold. Look -- I think health insurance needs fixing. I also think the current solution is so bad we should fire every Congressman who voted for it and run them out of town on a rail. I further believe that if two reasonable people sat down, they'd find that most of us really aren't that far apart on the issues. But this looks like picking a fight. For no reason.

acabal 16y ago
One of my good friends is a mechanical engineer, young, single, and healthy, but with a thyroid problem. He requires pills every day for the rest of his life. He would not be able to afford those pills for long without insurance if he quit his cube job and tried to innovate in his field: high efficiency engines and biofuels. These aren't imaginary people.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  I haven't had health insurance in over 10 years. I get sick, my family loses everything. During that time I've been self-employed and worked on several startups. You think telling me a story about your friend is somehow going to enlighten me on the subject of health insurance? How many anecdotes would we need to share to gain any ground in this discussion?
  - krschultz 16y ago
    That sounds incredibly selfish. This is what will actually happen if you get sick enough that your family loses everything: you will go to a hospital, you will get covered by the hospital because you can't be denied for lack of insurance coverage, and then the hospital will never recoup its expenses. Of course this also means you will have bankrupted your family. Why?
  - wtracy 16y ago
    From your earlier post: <i>while people who want to strike out will, and figure out how to make it work.</i> You claim that anyone who wants to be self-employed is able to do so. The next post provides a counterexample to your blanket statement. Then you get angry that he's telling an "anecdote"?
    - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
      Let me see if I understand what you're saying. I make a generalization that people who want to will form a startup regardless of circumstances. The counterpoint to that was providing an example of somebody who didn't form a startup because of some condition. That's known as a counter-factual: taking what actually happened and changing something and saying that it would come out differently had this one thing changed. Sure, the person in question says that's the reason, but my entire point rests on the fact that people will rationalize. I, on the other hand, provide a _real_ example of somebody without insurance who has formed a startup, and on top of that I'm the one saying that both of these stories don't tell us much. So where am I in error? Counter-factuals are horrible ways to argue, and anecdotes don't get us anywhere, no matter which point they support, and the conversation isn't really going anywhere. In fact, this entire sub-thread started when I announced that this looked to me like a fruitless line of discussion. I flagged the story. So you agree, right? Or are you trying to say that somehow there is some progress being made that I missed out on?

teyc 16y ago

So true. There was another article on HN about the Danish welfare system and how it encourages people to go out on their own and take business risks because basic things like healthcare isn't out of reach.