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I've seen very similar form letters from other conventions. Largely they all lean on each other -- "they don't offer refunds so neither will we" -- but the bigg

I've seen very similar form letters from other conventions. Largely they all lean on each other -- "they don't offer refunds so neither will we" -- but the bigger factor is that the convention probably doesn't have the money to refund people. Most fan-run conventions run on a barely-above-breakeven budget at the best of times. I'm not intending this as an excuse, merely an explanation for people who may not have been involved in the organisation of a convention, or been close to people who have. With that perspective in mind, I find it hard to blame them. A wave of panicked attendees demanding refunds could well render them insolvent.

gkoberger 7y ago
I do agree money is the reason, for both sxsw and (actually more importantly) Austin. I wouldn't call sxsw a "fan-run convention" or "breakeven", and they certainly have insurance. Austin likely is the bigger issue... it brings them a ton of money every year.
djsumdog 7y ago
SXSW isn't a small independent festival. It has a lot of corporate backing and a lot of big organizers and company support. All of that being said, they are probably still operating at at near break even. It's still a lot of volunteers (even if some of them are paid or offered by companies). If there's any left over for these conventions, it usually goes straight towards the deposits for next year (or other stuff the organizing committees do throughout the year to raise funds and advertise for the next year). Even really big festivals usually run like this. It's a labor of love and resume building for organizers. But I agree, there's usually no money to refund. If less than half the people show, it will be just a lot of half filled venues.
donarb 7y ago
PyCon US will be held in Pittsburgh in the middle of April. They have not cancelled, but are offering full refunds for people that decide not to go.
- ryan_j_naughton 7y ago
  An arts and music festival has much higher capex than pycon. Pycon really just needs a standard conference center or conference hotel without modifications.
untog 7y ago
SXSW is hardly a "fan-run convention", though.
diebeforei485 7y ago
SXSW is not a small fan-run convention though. They almost certainly carry insurance for this kind of thing.
- SilasX 7y ago
  Right, but that doesn't mean there aren't remaining incentives that tempt unscrupulous organizers. Insurance, if underwritten correctly, just turns a crippling loss into a moderate loss, not into a break-even.
- Thrymr 7y ago
  I would be curious to know whether their insurance covers pandemics. That's even excluded from most travel insurance.
throwaway3157 7y ago
> Most fan-run conventions run on a barely-above-breakeven budget at the best of times. Ya, I've had local races get cancelled due to weather, and they also have a no-refund policy. Much of the revenue has already been spent, so I understand.
bogomipz 7y ago
SXSW is quite far from a fan-run type of convention. There's big money involved with corporate sponsors - Budweiser, Amex and Kia being some. It basically takes over Austin for a couple of weeks. It's also a few distinct conferences - music, film and interactive. To give an idea of it's size and scope here are the stats from 2019: https://explore.sxsw.com/hubfs/2019-SXSW-Event-Stats_9-10-19.pdf https://explore.sxsw.com/hubfs/2019-SXSW-Event-Stats_9-10-19...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
save_ferris 7y ago
I’m really surprised that they don’t have insurance to deal with scenarios like this.
- psychometry 7y ago
  They definitely have event insurance, but that's for situations like if the entire conference has to be canceled. They have no reason to make a claim just a reimburse an attendee who cancels despite the no-refund policy.
  - save_ferris 7y ago
    > that’s for situations like if the entire conference has to be canceled So how does a highly contagious virus with that’s already killed thousands not qualify for the above? I understand the mortality rate of the young and healthy is very low with this illness, but anyone who goes risks transmitting it to loved ones who aren’t in good health.
    - heurist 7y ago
      Would depend on the insurance policy. Probably no coverage for sxsw straight up cancelling without government requirement.
bena 7y ago
I think it's a matter of the venue refusing to refund. They get to be intractable because they know that places that can host such events are few. You almost have no choice but to deal with them. Not to mention, by renting to SXSW, they are choosing not to rent to someone else. By locking in the dates, then pulling out, the organizer is costing the venue money. So no matter what, the money paid to the venue is gone. The organizers cannot pay that back. And like you say, they probably were only able to pay that much because of ticket sales. There's likely very little profit from the event after the books are balanced. They likely know it would be the nice thing to do and that these are extraordinary circumstances. But, like you said, it would likely be them choosing to go out of business.
- AJ007 7y ago
  Straightening out the chain of liabilities would take some knowledge of state and local laws as well as all of the contracts involved. To claim the money is just gone is wrong. If they cancel right before an event, perhaps it is, but the conference itself may have some value. It could be sold off to another owner, for example. If you purchased something as a consumer, and it wasn’t delivered, someone is liable. As others have speculated some of the conferences may end up going bankrupt. A 100% refund is unlikely but at least partial ones are due. Given the lost revenues from hotels, flights, and conference fee, this is billions of dollars. Large enough for law firms to work on it. On the business side, for losses to exhibitors, it’s all based on what the contracts say.
  - bena 7y ago
    First, they've stated that the tickets are non-refundable. If they're still hosting the event and allowing people to attend, your reason for not attending is immaterial. Second, yes, some of that money is gone. It's likely paid to people for services either already rendered or promised. That's kind of the hitch here. The attendees cannot go after the venue for the money. The venue acquired the money legitimately from the organizer in a completely separate transaction. The organizer is the focal point. And if they don't have the money to pay people back, it's not like they can will it into existence. And even if law firms get involved, what's the outcome here? "Yes, they owe money." Cool. It still doesn't exist.
jliptzin 7y ago
Yea, I feel like Amazon is so good at customer service that people just expect full refunds these days even for things totally beyond the control of the seller. The terms stated the tickets were non refundable. Don’t buy the ticket if you don’t like the policy.
- bathtub365 7y ago
  Travel insurance can also be an option if you're worried about having to miss something for reasons outside of your control.
Seenso 7y ago
> With that perspective in mind, I find it hard to blame them. A wave of panicked attendees demanding refunds could well render them insolvent. Couldn't a conference like SXSW buy insurance to cover refunds? It's my understanding that you can buy a policy at Lloyd's of London to cover pretty any kind of unique risk. Pandemics like this one seem rare enough that the premiums might not actually be too bad.

gkoberger 7y ago

I do agree money is the reason, for both sxsw and (actually more importantly) Austin. I wouldn't call sxsw a "fan-run convention" or "breakeven", and they certainly have insurance. Austin likely is the bigger issue... it brings them a ton of money every year.

djsumdog 7y ago

SXSW isn't a small independent festival. It has a lot of corporate backing and a lot of big organizers and company support. All of that being said, they are probably still operating at at near break even. It's still a lot of volunteers (even if some of them are paid or offered by companies). If there's any left over for these conventions, it usually goes straight towards the deposits for next year (or other stuff the organizing committees do throughout the year to raise funds and advertise for the next year). Even really big festivals usually run like this. It's a labor of love and resume building for organizers. But I agree, there's usually no money to refund. If less than half the people show, it will be just a lot of half filled venues.

donarb 7y ago

PyCon US will be held in Pittsburgh in the middle of April. They have not cancelled, but are offering full refunds for people that decide not to go.

ryan_j_naughton 7y ago
An arts and music festival has much higher capex than pycon. Pycon really just needs a standard conference center or conference hotel without modifications.

untog 7y ago

SXSW is hardly a "fan-run convention", though.

diebeforei485 7y ago

SXSW is not a small fan-run convention though. They almost certainly carry insurance for this kind of thing.

SilasX 7y ago
Right, but that doesn't mean there aren't remaining incentives that tempt unscrupulous organizers. Insurance, if underwritten correctly, just turns a crippling loss into a moderate loss, not into a break-even.
Thrymr 7y ago
I would be curious to know whether their insurance covers pandemics. That's even excluded from most travel insurance.

throwaway3157 7y ago

> Most fan-run conventions run on a barely-above-breakeven budget at the best of times. Ya, I've had local races get cancelled due to weather, and they also have a no-refund policy. Much of the revenue has already been spent, so I understand.

bogomipz 7y ago

SXSW is quite far from a fan-run type of convention. There's big money involved with corporate sponsors - Budweiser, Amex and Kia being some. It basically takes over Austin for a couple of weeks. It's also a few distinct conferences - music, film and interactive. To give an idea of it's size and scope here are the stats from 2019: https://explore.sxsw.com/hubfs/2019-SXSW-Event-Stats_9-10-19.pdf https://explore.sxsw.com/hubfs/2019-SXSW-Event-Stats_9-10-19...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

save_ferris 7y ago

I’m really surprised that they don’t have insurance to deal with scenarios like this.

psychometry 7y ago
They definitely have event insurance, but that's for situations like if the entire conference has to be canceled. They have no reason to make a claim just a reimburse an attendee who cancels despite the no-refund policy.
- save_ferris 7y ago
  > that’s for situations like if the entire conference has to be canceled So how does a highly contagious virus with that’s already killed thousands not qualify for the above? I understand the mortality rate of the young and healthy is very low with this illness, but anyone who goes risks transmitting it to loved ones who aren’t in good health.
  - heurist 7y ago
    Would depend on the insurance policy. Probably no coverage for sxsw straight up cancelling without government requirement.

bena 7y ago

I think it's a matter of the venue refusing to refund. They get to be intractable because they know that places that can host such events are few. You almost have no choice but to deal with them. Not to mention, by renting to SXSW, they are choosing not to rent to someone else. By locking in the dates, then pulling out, the organizer is costing the venue money. So no matter what, the money paid to the venue is gone. The organizers cannot pay that back. And like you say, they probably were only able to pay that much because of ticket sales. There's likely very little profit from the event after the books are balanced. They likely know it would be the nice thing to do and that these are extraordinary circumstances. But, like you said, it would likely be them choosing to go out of business.

AJ007 7y ago
Straightening out the chain of liabilities would take some knowledge of state and local laws as well as all of the contracts involved. To claim the money is just gone is wrong. If they cancel right before an event, perhaps it is, but the conference itself may have some value. It could be sold off to another owner, for example. If you purchased something as a consumer, and it wasn’t delivered, someone is liable. As others have speculated some of the conferences may end up going bankrupt. A 100% refund is unlikely but at least partial ones are due. Given the lost revenues from hotels, flights, and conference fee, this is billions of dollars. Large enough for law firms to work on it. On the business side, for losses to exhibitors, it’s all based on what the contracts say.
- bena 7y ago
  First, they've stated that the tickets are non-refundable. If they're still hosting the event and allowing people to attend, your reason for not attending is immaterial. Second, yes, some of that money is gone. It's likely paid to people for services either already rendered or promised. That's kind of the hitch here. The attendees cannot go after the venue for the money. The venue acquired the money legitimately from the organizer in a completely separate transaction. The organizer is the focal point. And if they don't have the money to pay people back, it's not like they can will it into existence. And even if law firms get involved, what's the outcome here? "Yes, they owe money." Cool. It still doesn't exist.

jliptzin 7y ago

Yea, I feel like Amazon is so good at customer service that people just expect full refunds these days even for things totally beyond the control of the seller. The terms stated the tickets were non refundable. Don’t buy the ticket if you don’t like the policy.

bathtub365 7y ago
Travel insurance can also be an option if you're worried about having to miss something for reasons outside of your control.

Seenso 7y ago

> With that perspective in mind, I find it hard to blame them. A wave of panicked attendees demanding refunds could well render them insolvent. Couldn't a conference like SXSW buy insurance to cover refunds? It's my understanding that you can buy a policy at Lloyd's of London to cover pretty any kind of unique risk. Pandemics like this one seem rare enough that the premiums might not actually be too bad.