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I think that this 'pre-wire' concept is one that humans abhor on some level because it reduces the feeling of autonomy (or free will). But we are biased agains

I think that this 'pre-wire' concept is one that humans abhor on some level because it reduces the feeling of autonomy (or free will). But we are biased against it to our peril. When we look around the animal kingdom, we are bombarded with examples of how other animals are born knowing how to walk, or even weave spider webs. Why would humans be any different? We are most likely pre-wired with pathways that facilitate learning in specific ways that enable our brains to develop specific skills, such as speech. Although, it would be pretty great if we could pre-wire ourselves to know how to use a toilet.

_sbrk 7y ago
I don't think that it is at all difficult to suppose that we humans have a sort of "Boot ROM" to get us started in the world. This basic brain wiring pattern is then patched, if you will, over many decades to make us the person which we will eventually become.
- tsumnia 7y ago
  Right, but I believe OP's argument is more align to the idea that some things are "nature" and others "nurture". Further, which perceptions of the world are prewired will always be a hotly debated topic.
- posterboy 7y ago
  Yes, a "Boot-ROM", bleep, bloob, blergh. You are basically saying we are born with a brain and corresponding nervous system. That's a deep insight, but nothing fundamentally novel.
narag 7y ago
Is it really a feeling? What I find weird id how it's supposed to be defined in the genome.
- magicalhippo 7y ago
  You can get pretty complex behavior almost entirely due to the structure of the neural net[1], and judging by the rest of our bodies, building non-trivial structures is something the genome is quite capable of. [1]: https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/08/exploring-weight-agnostic-neural.html https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/08/exploring-weight-agnostic-...
  - narag 7y ago
    You're arguing that it's possible, I'm saying that I haven't seen any data showing genes defining behaviour in a way that can be called "prewired to perceive the world". Not really a conflicting statement, but neither to contradict my skepticism.
    - monocasa 7y ago
      The coordinate system(s) used by cell differentiation can collectively figure out body location down to a single cell. Using those inputs to define how the cell differentiates from a stem cell line is how nearly all the body differentiates, why would neurons be different? Beyond that, it's pretty clear that there are very hardwired parts of the brain around bootstrapping. You're born with the ability to recognize faces, and mirror neurons reflect the actions of those around you in a very similar way to you taking those actions yourself.
    - magicalhippo 7y ago
      Random example, baby kangaroos when born[1] know a) that they need to climb into the mothers pouch b) know _how_ to climb into the mothers pouch and c) know _where_ to climb in order to get into the mothers pouch. They start climbing immediately after being born, before the mother can teach them anything. What else than genes could be behind that? https://youtu.be/UpsnREY-6no?t=25 https://youtu.be/UpsnREY-6no?t=25
    - stanfordkid 7y ago
      Genes don’t directly create complex structures in the way you are thinking. Rather these patterns arise via emergent effects of proteins interacting and resisting each other across populations of cells.[1] So really what you might have is a certain neuronal cell type that sends signaling molecules that cause it to divide in a very particular way that could roughly create a structure similar to a face detecting filter. If cells can grow into bones or coral reefs, why not face detecting neurons? [1]https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ddns/2020/2308074/ https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ddns/2020/2308074/
posterboy 7y ago
We are wired to stay away from things we don't quite understand yet. > When we look around the animal kingdom, we are bombarded with examples of how other animals are born knowing how to walk, or even weave spider webs. It frequently amazes me that lower animals manage to get laid. As for spiders though, these little criters should not be underestimated. On the one hand, one should not read too much inteligence into the application of severely limited options. On the other hand, learning from limited rules has well been proven feasable, I think. Either way, that's not exactly "born with" an ability, rather reflexes and capacity. What amounts to instinct.
- fermuch 7y ago
  But where would instincts come from if they aren't pre wired?
  - posterboy 7y ago
    > reflexes and capacity my objection to "Boot ROM" in another comment was downvoted, so, that? Suppose intrinsic memory or epigenetics.
proc0 7y ago
Right, and they have seen mice in labs visualize their learning of paths in a labyrinth. Chances are mammals have a basic kind of consciousness shared, which built up to humans.
ozim 7y ago
I do not understand how genetic pre-wiring reduces the feeling of autonomy. Where being born in wrong country reduces autonomy so much more... Maybe people who were coming up with those thoughts were only born in nice places.

_sbrk 7y ago

I don't think that it is at all difficult to suppose that we humans have a sort of "Boot ROM" to get us started in the world. This basic brain wiring pattern is then patched, if you will, over many decades to make us the person which we will eventually become.

tsumnia 7y ago
Right, but I believe OP's argument is more align to the idea that some things are "nature" and others "nurture". Further, which perceptions of the world are prewired will always be a hotly debated topic.
posterboy 7y ago
Yes, a "Boot-ROM", bleep, bloob, blergh. You are basically saying we are born with a brain and corresponding nervous system. That's a deep insight, but nothing fundamentally novel.

narag 7y ago

Is it really a feeling? What I find weird id how it's supposed to be defined in the genome.

magicalhippo 7y ago
You can get pretty complex behavior almost entirely due to the structure of the neural net[1], and judging by the rest of our bodies, building non-trivial structures is something the genome is quite capable of. [1]: https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/08/exploring-weight-agnostic-neural.html https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/08/exploring-weight-agnostic-...
- narag 7y ago
  You're arguing that it's possible, I'm saying that I haven't seen any data showing genes defining behaviour in a way that can be called "prewired to perceive the world". Not really a conflicting statement, but neither to contradict my skepticism.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    The coordinate system(s) used by cell differentiation can collectively figure out body location down to a single cell. Using those inputs to define how the cell differentiates from a stem cell line is how nearly all the body differentiates, why would neurons be different? Beyond that, it's pretty clear that there are very hardwired parts of the brain around bootstrapping. You're born with the ability to recognize faces, and mirror neurons reflect the actions of those around you in a very similar way to you taking those actions yourself.
  - magicalhippo 7y ago
    Random example, baby kangaroos when born[1] know a) that they need to climb into the mothers pouch b) know _how_ to climb into the mothers pouch and c) know _where_ to climb in order to get into the mothers pouch. They start climbing immediately after being born, before the mother can teach them anything. What else than genes could be behind that? https://youtu.be/UpsnREY-6no?t=25 https://youtu.be/UpsnREY-6no?t=25
  - stanfordkid 7y ago
    Genes don’t directly create complex structures in the way you are thinking. Rather these patterns arise via emergent effects of proteins interacting and resisting each other across populations of cells.[1] So really what you might have is a certain neuronal cell type that sends signaling molecules that cause it to divide in a very particular way that could roughly create a structure similar to a face detecting filter. If cells can grow into bones or coral reefs, why not face detecting neurons? [1]https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ddns/2020/2308074/ https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ddns/2020/2308074/

posterboy 7y ago

We are wired to stay away from things we don't quite understand yet. > When we look around the animal kingdom, we are bombarded with examples of how other animals are born knowing how to walk, or even weave spider webs. It frequently amazes me that lower animals manage to get laid. As for spiders though, these little criters should not be underestimated. On the one hand, one should not read too much inteligence into the application of severely limited options. On the other hand, learning from limited rules has well been proven feasable, I think. Either way, that's not exactly "born with" an ability, rather reflexes and capacity. What amounts to instinct.

fermuch 7y ago
But where would instincts come from if they aren't pre wired?
- posterboy 7y ago
  > reflexes and capacity my objection to "Boot ROM" in another comment was downvoted, so, that? Suppose intrinsic memory or epigenetics.

proc0 7y ago

Right, and they have seen mice in labs visualize their learning of paths in a labyrinth. Chances are mammals have a basic kind of consciousness shared, which built up to humans.

ozim 7y ago

I do not understand how genetic pre-wiring reduces the feeling of autonomy. Where being born in wrong country reduces autonomy so much more... Maybe people who were coming up with those thoughts were only born in nice places.