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Yeah, but if you replace the barcode that's not a problem. I suppose you could stick one on the inside and one on the outside, as paxys suggested. Then you'd h

Yeah, but if you replace the barcode that's not a problem. I suppose you could stick one on the inside and one on the outside, as paxys suggested. Then you'd have both deterrent and tamper-resistance. As an extra bonus, if some schmuck tilts and replaces it, the deterrent will still be in force for the next guy down the line.

mattkrause 7y ago
The serial number is--in theory--recorded by the sender specifically so that you can't just swap them out. You put sticker #C097412 on the crate yourself, record the number, and the shipper takes it away. If things arrive damaged--and these are usually used on very expensive shipments--you can check the tilt indicator AND its number. I would bet it's much worse if indicator #D108523 arrives instead. As an added impediment, they're often on the surface of the item but buried beneath a bunch of plastic wrap/padding/etc.
- ska 7y ago
  Yes, your shipping department records the barcode and signs, receiver gets the list of them by separate record. Receiver checks these of course. You'll often also put a variety of them inside. It's not just rough handling, but temperature and humidity too. You can audit this sort of thing by sending occasional fake packages with precise recording instruments in them, but for usual shipments just use a variety of indicators.
- heartbeats 7y ago
  Yes, but I mean, what if you replace the sticker with the barcode and the serial number? You have #C097412. You remove it, and put on #D108523. You then replace the barcode and serial number underneath with #D108523.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    I, as the shipper, tell you (the receiver) out-of-band that you're getting a tilt indicator with serial #C097412. You check the received label against my out-of-band signal to ensure it matches.
    - heartbeats 7y ago
      And you did, but it's a forgery. It doesn't look like it has the fancy holo stickers or anything.
      - MrMorden 7y ago
        That might not exactly take a Tony Mendez-grade forger, but making a good one is probably not going to be within the skill set of random warehouse workers who enjoy agitating expensive shipments. They have to find a decent forger, get in contact, and arrange for the service. That wasn't going to be cheap to begin with, but the package is constantly in motion, so now someone else has to emplace the forged detector in a different location. Assuming the warehouse worker can afford all that, someone offering anti-tamper-bypass-as-a-service is going to run headfirst into the FBI, SCA, and other well-resourced government organizations with which a sane individual would never consider fucking. That does not lead to rising property values in Tokyo.
        mattkrause 7y ago
        And what’s the point of all this effort? Tilting packages doesn’t seem particularly fun or lucrative. It’s not even a particularly effective form of sabotage: maybe you’ll increase the damaged-in-shipment claims by a bit, but maybe not. If you’re already forging and breaking into wear houses, surely you could find something more enjoyable, profitable, or vicious to do than provide post-hoc cover to a rough shipper.
        michaelt 7y ago
        Usually? You are a delivery worker. You will get fired if you aren't fast enough. You will also be fired if you trigger a tilt indicator. You're on your final warning, and replacement tilt stickers cost $3 on ebay. A delivery worker won't be hacking e-mails - but if they know hardly anyone checks the tilt sensor serial numbers anyway...
        mattkrause 7y ago
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    The vendor puts the tilt detectors onto the crate before the shipper collects it. The tag numbers are noted on the invoice/shipping notice/etc which says something like “Please verify tilt indicator C097412 before accepting the package. If the indicator is missing or reads 40+ degrees, DO NOT SIGN FOR THE PACKAGE; CALL US ASAP INSTEAD.” This is sent by email or (alas) fax directly from the vendor to the recipient. At some point in transit, the package tips over (oops). You sneak in and swap the indicator for #D108523 while it’s awaiting a connection. When it arrives, the recipient checks the crate against the invoice. She notices that the indicator numbers don’t match: the email says C097412, but the crate has D108532 on it. She won’t sign for it. She calls the vendor and says “There may be a problem with the very fragile, VERY EXPENSIVE microscope I ordered from you. Send me another one that’s demonstrably intact or get a service team out here NOW to check this one over. Legal says you’re not getting paid otherwise.” Several other people are about to have bad days. The vendor checks their own logs and finds that the crate did indeed go out with C097412 on it. They proceed to ream out the shipping company. A lot of things might happen next, but after most of them, you get fired. You might have gotten away with it if you could change that email, but how would you at the shipping company, have access to either parties’ email or records? And if you did have such access—-and wanted to use it for evil—-surely you could think of something more lucrative than fractionally increasing the number of possibly-damaged items received?

mattkrause 7y ago

The serial number is--in theory--recorded by the sender specifically so that you can't just swap them out. You put sticker #C097412 on the crate yourself, record the number, and the shipper takes it away. If things arrive damaged--and these are usually used on very expensive shipments--you can check the tilt indicator AND its number. I would bet it's much worse if indicator #D108523 arrives instead. As an added impediment, they're often on the surface of the item but buried beneath a bunch of plastic wrap/padding/etc.

ska 7y ago
Yes, your shipping department records the barcode and signs, receiver gets the list of them by separate record. Receiver checks these of course. You'll often also put a variety of them inside. It's not just rough handling, but temperature and humidity too. You can audit this sort of thing by sending occasional fake packages with precise recording instruments in them, but for usual shipments just use a variety of indicators.
heartbeats 7y ago
Yes, but I mean, what if you replace the sticker with the barcode and the serial number? You have #C097412. You remove it, and put on #D108523. You then replace the barcode and serial number underneath with #D108523.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  I, as the shipper, tell you (the receiver) out-of-band that you're getting a tilt indicator with serial #C097412. You check the received label against my out-of-band signal to ensure it matches.
  - heartbeats 7y ago
    And you did, but it's a forgery. It doesn't look like it has the fancy holo stickers or anything.
    - MrMorden 7y ago
      That might not exactly take a Tony Mendez-grade forger, but making a good one is probably not going to be within the skill set of random warehouse workers who enjoy agitating expensive shipments. They have to find a decent forger, get in contact, and arrange for the service. That wasn't going to be cheap to begin with, but the package is constantly in motion, so now someone else has to emplace the forged detector in a different location. Assuming the warehouse worker can afford all that, someone offering anti-tamper-bypass-as-a-service is going to run headfirst into the FBI, SCA, and other well-resourced government organizations with which a sane individual would never consider fucking. That does not lead to rising property values in Tokyo.
      - mattkrause 7y ago
        And what’s the point of all this effort? Tilting packages doesn’t seem particularly fun or lucrative. It’s not even a particularly effective form of sabotage: maybe you’ll increase the damaged-in-shipment claims by a bit, but maybe not. If you’re already forging and breaking into wear houses, surely you could find something more enjoyable, profitable, or vicious to do than provide post-hoc cover to a rough shipper.
        michaelt 7y ago
        Usually? You are a delivery worker. You will get fired if you aren't fast enough. You will also be fired if you trigger a tilt indicator. You're on your final warning, and replacement tilt stickers cost $3 on ebay. A delivery worker won't be hacking e-mails - but if they know hardly anyone checks the tilt sensor serial numbers anyway...
        mattkrause 7y ago
- mattkrause 7y ago
  The vendor puts the tilt detectors onto the crate before the shipper collects it. The tag numbers are noted on the invoice/shipping notice/etc which says something like “Please verify tilt indicator C097412 before accepting the package. If the indicator is missing or reads 40+ degrees, DO NOT SIGN FOR THE PACKAGE; CALL US ASAP INSTEAD.” This is sent by email or (alas) fax directly from the vendor to the recipient. At some point in transit, the package tips over (oops). You sneak in and swap the indicator for #D108523 while it’s awaiting a connection. When it arrives, the recipient checks the crate against the invoice. She notices that the indicator numbers don’t match: the email says C097412, but the crate has D108532 on it. She won’t sign for it. She calls the vendor and says “There may be a problem with the very fragile, VERY EXPENSIVE microscope I ordered from you. Send me another one that’s demonstrably intact or get a service team out here NOW to check this one over. Legal says you’re not getting paid otherwise.” Several other people are about to have bad days. The vendor checks their own logs and finds that the crate did indeed go out with C097412 on it. They proceed to ream out the shipping company. A lot of things might happen next, but after most of them, you get fired. You might have gotten away with it if you could change that email, but how would you at the shipping company, have access to either parties’ email or records? And if you did have such access—-and wanted to use it for evil—-surely you could think of something more lucrative than fractionally increasing the number of possibly-damaged items received?