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I grew up in Canada, several decades ago. At that time, everyone returned glass soft-drink bottles and beer bottles to the stores where the items were purchased

I grew up in Canada, several decades ago. At that time, everyone returned glass soft-drink bottles and beer bottles to the stores where the items were purchased. Milk was delivered in bottles, and the delivery person picked up the empty bottles we left on the porch the night before. Nobody would have thought of throwing the glass into the trash, even if there were no refunds. I think part of this was that so many people had a memory of the great depression, and waste was viewed as sinful. When plastic came in, the older folks washed plastic bags out so they could reuse them. You'd see them on the clothes lines, drying out. (Sure, people had indoor dryers, but clothes dried on the line not only saved on the electric bill but smelled so damned wonderful that it's hard to erase the memory of the delight in bringing things in off the line.)

VBprogrammer 7y ago
Yes, we seem to have lost something in the last few generations. The mantra used to be reduce, reuse, recycle. The order is significant, recycling should be a last resort.
Spooky23 7y ago
The problem is that environmental people bikeshed and argue about everything. They don’t like glass or reuse because water is used for washing and you need to haul the empty bottle. Especially with the rise of e-commerce, there’s no reason why most consumer products couldn’t be delivered in reusable glass containers.
- technotony 7y ago
  The problem is the return of the reusable containers. I've collaborating with several startups working on this problem. Shipping costs are 20-40% of COGS for many ecommerce catagories and you are basically doubling them when you require return for reuse and consumers don't want to pay the price premium that requires.
- ntsplnkv2 7y ago
  What number of items actually need rewashing? Sure, foodstuffs. But why can we not refill our soaps, chemicals, etc. Laundry detergent? There is no need to wash those with water.
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    I used to buy things like that in bulk, back when I lived near a co-op that offered them. I haven't seen something like that in a long time, though, and I wonder if it's even still a thing. I suspect that the real problem with packaging reduction is that it favors a consolidated product stream. One of those bulk "fill your own containers" of shampoo probably took up the same amount of space as 6 or 8 different products in individual packaging. Which in turn means that you can't offer your customers a dizzying variety of scents and textures and customizations for your hair type and brands and varying levels of organic or biodynamic or being insert_ingredient_here-free or whatever. And everyone buying the same shampoo - making it effectively a commodity - probably does a number on your ability to boost profits through price discrimination, too.
    - int_19h 7y ago
      Even on Amazon, there are bulk-size containers for stuff like soaps and bleach. 5 gallon is usually readily available, and sometimes more.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if shipping plastic containers and then incinerating them consumes less petroleum and releases less carbon than shipping glass containers twice. Perhaps with standardized containers and regional distribution centers? Sort of like the old-school beverage bottling plants, but for all variety of consumer products, and not tied to just one brand or class of product. I've no idea how you'd get such a thing bootstrapped, though.
  - pessimizer 7y ago
    Zero-waste stores seem to be a recent development in Europe, I remember watching a DW segment on them: https://wastelandrebel.com/en/the-first-zero-waste-bulk-store-in-germany-unverpackt-kiel/ https://wastelandrebel.com/en/the-first-zero-waste-bulk-stor... https://www.bepakt.com/ https://www.bepakt.com/
    - mumblemumble 7y ago
      Yeah, happy that even some major supermarkets in the US are even beginning to introduce bulk foods. But I just don't see how waste reduction can be neatly reconciled with e-commerce. The typical situation seems to be that things are packed in retail-style packaging, then plastic wrapped, then placed in a plastic padded mailing envelope or placed in a cardboard box along with some plastic air pillows, and then shipped 2day, which, if it's not coming from Amazon, likely means jet fuel is being burned. I'll say that for Amazon, they at least did an impressive job reducing the fuel waste inherent in ecommerce. It's too bad they're so happy to let the counterfeiters ruin it for us.

VBprogrammer 7y ago

Yes, we seem to have lost something in the last few generations. The mantra used to be reduce, reuse, recycle. The order is significant, recycling should be a last resort.

Spooky23 7y ago

The problem is that environmental people bikeshed and argue about everything. They don’t like glass or reuse because water is used for washing and you need to haul the empty bottle. Especially with the rise of e-commerce, there’s no reason why most consumer products couldn’t be delivered in reusable glass containers.

technotony 7y ago
The problem is the return of the reusable containers. I've collaborating with several startups working on this problem. Shipping costs are 20-40% of COGS for many ecommerce catagories and you are basically doubling them when you require return for reuse and consumers don't want to pay the price premium that requires.
ntsplnkv2 7y ago
What number of items actually need rewashing? Sure, foodstuffs. But why can we not refill our soaps, chemicals, etc. Laundry detergent? There is no need to wash those with water.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  I used to buy things like that in bulk, back when I lived near a co-op that offered them. I haven't seen something like that in a long time, though, and I wonder if it's even still a thing. I suspect that the real problem with packaging reduction is that it favors a consolidated product stream. One of those bulk "fill your own containers" of shampoo probably took up the same amount of space as 6 or 8 different products in individual packaging. Which in turn means that you can't offer your customers a dizzying variety of scents and textures and customizations for your hair type and brands and varying levels of organic or biodynamic or being insert_ingredient_here-free or whatever. And everyone buying the same shampoo - making it effectively a commodity - probably does a number on your ability to boost profits through price discrimination, too.
  - int_19h 7y ago
    Even on Amazon, there are bulk-size containers for stuff like soaps and bleach. 5 gallon is usually readily available, and sometimes more.
mumblemumble 7y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if shipping plastic containers and then incinerating them consumes less petroleum and releases less carbon than shipping glass containers twice. Perhaps with standardized containers and regional distribution centers? Sort of like the old-school beverage bottling plants, but for all variety of consumer products, and not tied to just one brand or class of product. I've no idea how you'd get such a thing bootstrapped, though.
- pessimizer 7y ago
  Zero-waste stores seem to be a recent development in Europe, I remember watching a DW segment on them: https://wastelandrebel.com/en/the-first-zero-waste-bulk-store-in-germany-unverpackt-kiel/ https://wastelandrebel.com/en/the-first-zero-waste-bulk-stor... https://www.bepakt.com/ https://www.bepakt.com/
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    Yeah, happy that even some major supermarkets in the US are even beginning to introduce bulk foods. But I just don't see how waste reduction can be neatly reconciled with e-commerce. The typical situation seems to be that things are packed in retail-style packaging, then plastic wrapped, then placed in a plastic padded mailing envelope or placed in a cardboard box along with some plastic air pillows, and then shipped 2day, which, if it's not coming from Amazon, likely means jet fuel is being burned. I'll say that for Amazon, they at least did an impressive job reducing the fuel waste inherent in ecommerce. It's too bad they're so happy to let the counterfeiters ruin it for us.