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If the a hard problem is real, then it is a neuroscience issue. If it does not exist, then the illusion of it is a neuroscience issue.

whatshisface 7y ago
What if consciousness real but not a neuroscience issue? If you want a thought experiment to illustrate that, imagine a VR world where the inhabitants are connected in with headsets. Nothing inside the world will explain why it feels to everyone like experiences are being exported out of it.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  "imagine a VR world" I don't see how this contributes any insights into the issue. How is that "world" any different from a real world experience, relevant to this issue? I mean, nothing in Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean ride explains "why it feels to everyone like experiences are being exported out of it" either.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    >nothing in Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean ride explains "why it feels to everyone like experiences are being exported out of it" either. Yeah, exactly. There's no way to tell if neuroscience is just the "Pirates of the Caribbean" ride through which something else is getting pulled through on boats. Is there any evidence one way or the other? What would evidence look like? I think it is beyond the reach of science because there is no experiment you could ever do that would illuminate it. Something that can only be resolved by discussing the options and choosing which one feels the most reasonable is philosophy, and not science.
- chr1 7y ago
  In all cases it is a Math issue. Either there exists some effective computation that would produce behavior similar to the behavior of conscious being, and could be performed in VR world too, or computation would require exponential resources, or (in the most unlikely case) such computation would not exist, and it would be possible to show why it cannot exist. Neuroscience and Physics can help to find the rules for that computation. And Philosophy can have fun talking about what lies beyond unknown.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    Behavior similar to a conscious being =/= conscious being.
    - tialaramex 7y ago
      This is the P Zombie (Philosophical Zombie) problem. You're going to have to do much better than just state as a fact that you're right to convince everybody else. After decades of debate about this topic from top philosophers I think it's very unlikely that anything novel, much less decisive will come from a Hacker News sub-thread.
      - whatshisface 7y ago
        I didn't invent P-Zombies, I'm just using them as evidence that the issue of consciousness is metaphysical.
        chr1 7y ago
        You can tie a metaphysical issue to everything by asking if it "really" exists, or is it something else that is absolutely not distinguishable from the "real" thing. If by hard problem of consciousness you mean that kind of question, then it is definitely up to philosophy because no one else is even asking it. Everyone answers the question about P-Zombies every day, by deciding the people they meet are conscious, based only on their behaviour. The more interesting question is whether it is possible to get human like behaviour from a program running on classical computer.

whatshisface 7y ago

What if consciousness real but not a neuroscience issue? If you want a thought experiment to illustrate that, imagine a VR world where the inhabitants are connected in with headsets. Nothing inside the world will explain why it feels to everyone like experiences are being exported out of it.

robbrown451 7y ago
"imagine a VR world" I don't see how this contributes any insights into the issue. How is that "world" any different from a real world experience, relevant to this issue? I mean, nothing in Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean ride explains "why it feels to everyone like experiences are being exported out of it" either.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  >nothing in Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean ride explains "why it feels to everyone like experiences are being exported out of it" either. Yeah, exactly. There's no way to tell if neuroscience is just the "Pirates of the Caribbean" ride through which something else is getting pulled through on boats. Is there any evidence one way or the other? What would evidence look like? I think it is beyond the reach of science because there is no experiment you could ever do that would illuminate it. Something that can only be resolved by discussing the options and choosing which one feels the most reasonable is philosophy, and not science.
chr1 7y ago
In all cases it is a Math issue. Either there exists some effective computation that would produce behavior similar to the behavior of conscious being, and could be performed in VR world too, or computation would require exponential resources, or (in the most unlikely case) such computation would not exist, and it would be possible to show why it cannot exist. Neuroscience and Physics can help to find the rules for that computation. And Philosophy can have fun talking about what lies beyond unknown.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Behavior similar to a conscious being =/= conscious being.
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    This is the P Zombie (Philosophical Zombie) problem. You're going to have to do much better than just state as a fact that you're right to convince everybody else. After decades of debate about this topic from top philosophers I think it's very unlikely that anything novel, much less decisive will come from a Hacker News sub-thread.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      I didn't invent P-Zombies, I'm just using them as evidence that the issue of consciousness is metaphysical.
      - chr1 7y ago
        You can tie a metaphysical issue to everything by asking if it "really" exists, or is it something else that is absolutely not distinguishable from the "real" thing. If by hard problem of consciousness you mean that kind of question, then it is definitely up to philosophy because no one else is even asking it. Everyone answers the question about P-Zombies every day, by deciding the people they meet are conscious, based only on their behaviour. The more interesting question is whether it is possible to get human like behaviour from a program running on classical computer.