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Personal income tax may be higher, but the advantages far outweigh the cost. I'm thinking about: free healthcare, extremely low electricity cost, cheap rent (p

Personal income tax may be higher, but the advantages far outweigh the cost. I'm thinking about: free healthcare, extremely low electricity cost, cheap rent (pretty much half as much as SF's rent) and everything that comes with living in a major city. RE French: Ever learned a new programming language to go work somewhere? What's the difference? You don't have to be fluent in French, you have to understand it enough to read signs (which are usually just street or landmarks names with a symbol). I see this more as a great opportunity to become a better candidate in the future - by knowing another language. I completely understand your reluctance, but you have to look at the bigger picture.

andrewvc 16y ago
I spent a week in Montreal a few months ago, I'm an American and speak no french at all, and I didn't have any issues. All in all, I found it a pretty cool place to spend time, and somewhere I'd consider moving. I even spent a day at a pretty nice coworking spot there: http://station-c.com/en http://station-c.com/en
danudey 16y ago
You can get all of those benefits by living in Vancouver (though rent isn't as cheap here, apartments and suites are much better maintained). On top of that, the weather is better, the people are friendlier, and you don't have to worry as much about not getting a position solely because your language skills aren't up to snuff.
- jeromegn 16y ago
  I guess my comment (apart from the French part) applies to most big cities in Canada. Thanks for pointing that out. "the people are friendlier" is too subjective though, can't really be sure of that. Getting a position in a startup or open source team here isn't up to spoken language (unless like said early, it's customer facing). I think startups here prefer English. French is just that little extra (sad thing to say, but it's the truth).
  - danudey 16y ago
    "the people are friendlier" is too subjective though, can't really be sure of that. Well that's a point, and it all depends on your own mentality, but I found that the culture in general is more friendly (people will smile at you more, strangers will start or participate in conversation, people hold doors, etc.) in Vancouver compared to Montreal. Another problem I saw was that when trying to socialize in some social groups, the conversation would tend to be entirely in French solely for reasons of preference (given an equal anglophone/francophone split), making it incredibly difficult to do anything other than sit there and pick out the occasional word. It can go both ways of course, depending on the group in which you find yourself, but it's just one of those little frustrations that can make it difficult to integrate into social circles in Montreal vs. an anglophone city like Vancouver.
- neilk 16y ago
  Just a slight correction on "friendlier"; people in English Canada are more friendly according to the American norm, where you have one (maybe two) close confidants, and then many shallow cordial relations. French Canadians do it another way. They have a small circle of friends they would do anything for, but most of the outside world is excluded. If you move to Montreal it will take a few years to break through into a social circle, unless you hang out only with expats. Also, don't go to Quebec expecting the HI I'LL BE YOUR SLAVE TODAY treatment at a restaurant. Just... don't.
  - danudey 16y ago
    Well I found even outside of actual relationships, people in Vancouver are much friendlier. I moved to Vancouver from Montreal with a roommate who'd grown up in Montreal, and it took her well over a year to accept the fact that when people in Vancouver are nice to you, smile, etc. they're not being fake, they're actually being nice. She didn't understand, because it doesn't happen in Montreal. In Vancouver, I find that people will be more open to starting (or participating in) conversations on the bus, being asked for directions, chatting at a cafe (including baristas, cashiers, etc.), and so on. In Montreal, even with those people who did speak English, the attitude I saw from people was generally 'get out of my face'. People in Montreal, in my experience, are absorbed in themselves and have no interest in anyone around them. They won't (as a rule) try to strike up a conversation on the street, they won't offer to help you if you're having trouble e.g. carrying a package, they won't hold doors. There are exceptions, but they're much more rare than in Vancouver, where everyone generally seems pretty content with their lives and is happy to lend a smile or a helping hand or a compliment to someone they've never met before or will again. The other reason I enjoy Vancouver quite a bit (aside from the weather) is the living accommodations. It's said that the cost of living in Vancouver is higher, but from my point of view it tends to be pretty close, in the sense that you have to pay more in Vancouver but you also get nicer places. In Montreal, there is no 'damage deposit' when you rent an apartment, so there's much less incentive to be careful when you live in a place. Likewise, if there is a problem after you've left the landlord has to pay for it out of pocket (or try to fight with the tenancy board, which is a futile endeavour for small sums). The places tend to get run down and stay that way for longer. Even most 'renovated' places I saw were below what I'd consider liveable. The cost of renting a place is convenient though, considering that the wages in Montreal are (often considerably) lower than in Vancouver or Toronto.
- jbarham 16y ago
  As someone who has lived in Vancouver, saying that its weather is better than Montreal's isn't saying much, unless of course you actually like six straight months of almost daily rain. Having lived over four years in California, the weather there is incomparably better.

andrewvc 16y ago

I spent a week in Montreal a few months ago, I'm an American and speak no french at all, and I didn't have any issues. All in all, I found it a pretty cool place to spend time, and somewhere I'd consider moving. I even spent a day at a pretty nice coworking spot there: http://station-c.com/en http://station-c.com/en

danudey 16y ago

You can get all of those benefits by living in Vancouver (though rent isn't as cheap here, apartments and suites are much better maintained). On top of that, the weather is better, the people are friendlier, and you don't have to worry as much about not getting a position solely because your language skills aren't up to snuff.

jeromegn 16y ago
I guess my comment (apart from the French part) applies to most big cities in Canada. Thanks for pointing that out. "the people are friendlier" is too subjective though, can't really be sure of that. Getting a position in a startup or open source team here isn't up to spoken language (unless like said early, it's customer facing). I think startups here prefer English. French is just that little extra (sad thing to say, but it's the truth).
- danudey 16y ago
  "the people are friendlier" is too subjective though, can't really be sure of that. Well that's a point, and it all depends on your own mentality, but I found that the culture in general is more friendly (people will smile at you more, strangers will start or participate in conversation, people hold doors, etc.) in Vancouver compared to Montreal. Another problem I saw was that when trying to socialize in some social groups, the conversation would tend to be entirely in French solely for reasons of preference (given an equal anglophone/francophone split), making it incredibly difficult to do anything other than sit there and pick out the occasional word. It can go both ways of course, depending on the group in which you find yourself, but it's just one of those little frustrations that can make it difficult to integrate into social circles in Montreal vs. an anglophone city like Vancouver.
neilk 16y ago
Just a slight correction on "friendlier"; people in English Canada are more friendly according to the American norm, where you have one (maybe two) close confidants, and then many shallow cordial relations. French Canadians do it another way. They have a small circle of friends they would do anything for, but most of the outside world is excluded. If you move to Montreal it will take a few years to break through into a social circle, unless you hang out only with expats. Also, don't go to Quebec expecting the HI I'LL BE YOUR SLAVE TODAY treatment at a restaurant. Just... don't.
- danudey 16y ago
  Well I found even outside of actual relationships, people in Vancouver are much friendlier. I moved to Vancouver from Montreal with a roommate who'd grown up in Montreal, and it took her well over a year to accept the fact that when people in Vancouver are nice to you, smile, etc. they're not being fake, they're actually being nice. She didn't understand, because it doesn't happen in Montreal. In Vancouver, I find that people will be more open to starting (or participating in) conversations on the bus, being asked for directions, chatting at a cafe (including baristas, cashiers, etc.), and so on. In Montreal, even with those people who did speak English, the attitude I saw from people was generally 'get out of my face'. People in Montreal, in my experience, are absorbed in themselves and have no interest in anyone around them. They won't (as a rule) try to strike up a conversation on the street, they won't offer to help you if you're having trouble e.g. carrying a package, they won't hold doors. There are exceptions, but they're much more rare than in Vancouver, where everyone generally seems pretty content with their lives and is happy to lend a smile or a helping hand or a compliment to someone they've never met before or will again. The other reason I enjoy Vancouver quite a bit (aside from the weather) is the living accommodations. It's said that the cost of living in Vancouver is higher, but from my point of view it tends to be pretty close, in the sense that you have to pay more in Vancouver but you also get nicer places. In Montreal, there is no 'damage deposit' when you rent an apartment, so there's much less incentive to be careful when you live in a place. Likewise, if there is a problem after you've left the landlord has to pay for it out of pocket (or try to fight with the tenancy board, which is a futile endeavour for small sums). The places tend to get run down and stay that way for longer. Even most 'renovated' places I saw were below what I'd consider liveable. The cost of renting a place is convenient though, considering that the wages in Montreal are (often considerably) lower than in Vancouver or Toronto.
jbarham 16y ago
As someone who has lived in Vancouver, saying that its weather is better than Montreal's isn't saying much, unless of course you actually like six straight months of almost daily rain. Having lived over four years in California, the weather there is incomparably better.