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Some of it is libraries and frameworks. Some of it is the attention Clojure has paid to ergonomics. A lot of Clojure’s libraries seem to have been built by smar

Some of it is libraries and frameworks. Some of it is the attention Clojure has paid to ergonomics. A lot of Clojure’s libraries seem to have been built by smart people for mediocre programmers (like me!). Elsewhere in lisp land it can feel like smart people wrote libraries for themselves. For me Racket is probably the closest thing to a decent end-to-end modern lisp experience with decent libraries outside Clojure. Gerbil Scheme also looks promising. For me I’m most often writing smallish standalone apps, which I feel are easier to make in Racket than Clojure. But between the two languages, I’d probably take Clojure if I didn’t have the JVM along for the ride. Of course the JVM is also one of Clojure’s biggest strengths. Also, I don’t trust Oracle enough to stop pretending that Graal doesn’t exist.

chrisweekly 7y ago
"I don’t trust Oracle enough to stop pretending that Graal doesn't exist." Did I parse that correctly as: "I don't trust Oracle, therefore I pretend Graal doesn't exist"?
- peatmoss 7y ago
  Yes :-)
pron 7y ago
Aside from being faster, more mature and with better observability, why is bringing "the JVM along for the ride" different from bringing Racket's runtime along? Also, you do know that Oracle is behind OpenJDK, has been for ten years, and has recently made the JDK completely open-source and free of field-of-use restrictions for the first time in Java's history?
- higerordermap 7y ago
  Off topic; But since you work at Oracle, what is the Oracle copyright terms on alternative implementations of Java? (in the light of Android lawsuits). Eg: some research or commercial implementation for a subset of java etc?
  - pron 7y ago
    What do you mean by "alternative implementations"? OpenJDK is 100% open source, and is entirely governed by its open-source license. You can do whatever you want with -- including take just big or small pieces from it and change them -- it as long as you comply with the license. If you want to use the name "Java", your software must pass the TCK.
    - higerordermap 7y ago
      No. By alternative implementation I meant eg: some experimental java compiler to a different target eg: say JS / wasm, or a memory efficient class library implementation etc..
      - pron 7y ago
        The Java spec is not open source. You could either extract as much or as little from OpenJDK and comply with its open-source license or obtain a spec license if you don't wish to open-source your implementation. In other words, you have the open-source route or the closed source route, but the closed-source route isn't free. (BTW, I am not authorized to speak on behalf of anyone other than myself, so this is just my opinion).
- peatmoss 7y ago
  I haven’t figured out a way with the JVM / Clojure to compile and distribute a small self-contained bundle nearly as easily as I can with Racket. And Graal (the option I’m aware of for compiling JVM-based code into a redistributable binary) is definitely Oracle. If I wrote more long-running code, or I could redistribute a stripped down JVM as easily as with Racket’s build tool “raco” I might have a different view, and I’d definitely prefer OpenJDK to Oracle’s.
  - pron 7y ago
    OpenJDK is also made (primarily) by Oracle [1]; in fact, OpenJDK is the name of Oracle's one and only Java implementation project, although Oracle builds both free and support subscription binaries from it. Both OpenJDK and Graal are open source, though. OpenJDK now includes a tool called jlink [2] that allows you to create a small, self-contained bundle that includes a custom runtime as well as your app. [1]: http://openjdk.java.net/ http://openjdk.java.net/ [2]: https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/13/docs/specs/man/jlink.html https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/13/docs/specs/man/jli...
    - peatmoss 7y ago
      I’d love to see a tutorial on how to do this with Clojure—especially integrated with the Clojure build tooling.
pjmlp 7y ago
> decent end-to-end modern lisp experience with decent libraries outside Clojure Those are still LispWorks and Allegro Common Lisp.
tpfour 7y ago
Gerbil Scheme allowed me to be productive in Scheme. It really is a treat to work with. No tooling required other than compiling Gambit, Gerbil and having a text editor. Those three things let you ship fast binaries, with static or shared libraries. Couple that with a nice macro system (a la Racket) and you can get going really fast.

chrisweekly 7y ago

"I don’t trust Oracle enough to stop pretending that Graal doesn't exist." Did I parse that correctly as: "I don't trust Oracle, therefore I pretend Graal doesn't exist"?

peatmoss 7y ago
Yes :-)

pron 7y ago

Aside from being faster, more mature and with better observability, why is bringing "the JVM along for the ride" different from bringing Racket's runtime along? Also, you do know that Oracle is behind OpenJDK, has been for ten years, and has recently made the JDK completely open-source and free of field-of-use restrictions for the first time in Java's history?

higerordermap 7y ago
Off topic; But since you work at Oracle, what is the Oracle copyright terms on alternative implementations of Java? (in the light of Android lawsuits). Eg: some research or commercial implementation for a subset of java etc?
- pron 7y ago
  What do you mean by "alternative implementations"? OpenJDK is 100% open source, and is entirely governed by its open-source license. You can do whatever you want with -- including take just big or small pieces from it and change them -- it as long as you comply with the license. If you want to use the name "Java", your software must pass the TCK.
  - higerordermap 7y ago
    No. By alternative implementation I meant eg: some experimental java compiler to a different target eg: say JS / wasm, or a memory efficient class library implementation etc..
    - pron 7y ago
      The Java spec is not open source. You could either extract as much or as little from OpenJDK and comply with its open-source license or obtain a spec license if you don't wish to open-source your implementation. In other words, you have the open-source route or the closed source route, but the closed-source route isn't free. (BTW, I am not authorized to speak on behalf of anyone other than myself, so this is just my opinion).
peatmoss 7y ago
I haven’t figured out a way with the JVM / Clojure to compile and distribute a small self-contained bundle nearly as easily as I can with Racket. And Graal (the option I’m aware of for compiling JVM-based code into a redistributable binary) is definitely Oracle. If I wrote more long-running code, or I could redistribute a stripped down JVM as easily as with Racket’s build tool “raco” I might have a different view, and I’d definitely prefer OpenJDK to Oracle’s.
- pron 7y ago
  OpenJDK is also made (primarily) by Oracle [1]; in fact, OpenJDK is the name of Oracle's one and only Java implementation project, although Oracle builds both free and support subscription binaries from it. Both OpenJDK and Graal are open source, though. OpenJDK now includes a tool called jlink [2] that allows you to create a small, self-contained bundle that includes a custom runtime as well as your app. [1]: http://openjdk.java.net/ http://openjdk.java.net/ [2]: https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/13/docs/specs/man/jlink.html https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/13/docs/specs/man/jli...
  - peatmoss 7y ago
    I’d love to see a tutorial on how to do this with Clojure—especially integrated with the Clojure build tooling.

pjmlp 7y ago

> decent end-to-end modern lisp experience with decent libraries outside Clojure Those are still LispWorks and Allegro Common Lisp.

tpfour 7y ago

Gerbil Scheme allowed me to be productive in Scheme. It really is a treat to work with. No tooling required other than compiling Gambit, Gerbil and having a text editor. Those three things let you ship fast binaries, with static or shared libraries. Couple that with a nice macro system (a la Racket) and you can get going really fast.