3 ms·

That's precisely the subtlety I'm talking about, in which additive inverses and real numbers less than 0 can both be referred to as 'negatives', and that the op

by akalin 7y ago

That's precisely the subtlety I'm talking about, in which additive inverses and real numbers less than 0 can both be referred to as 'negatives', and that the operation of taking additive inverses and real numbers less than 0 both use the symbol '-'. It's pretty standard, though, that a 'negative number' is one that is less than 0, and a 'positive number' is one that is greater than 0, where a 'number' is an element of some subring of the reals.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You claimed that negative and positive are defined by absolute reference to zero. I claimed that they aren't. But you're presenting an example that assumes I'm right and you're wrong! > For example, the integers mod n is a ring, so (-a) * (-b) = a * b holds, but it doesn't make sense to call a number mod n positive or negative, since -a mod n effectively means n - a mod n. If negative numbers were defined by reference to a comparison to zero, then the expression (-a) * (-b) would be meaningless nonsense in Z mod 5 -- as you point out yourself, Z mod 5 is not ordered in that way. But it isn't nonsense, and you're not saying it is -- instead, you assume it's obviously valid when you observe that the equality (-a)(-b) = ab holds.
- akalin 7y ago
  I guess I'm not being too clear, so I'll try again. There are two concepts: 1) Positive and negative numbers (defined in terms of comparison to 0) 2) The negation of a number (i.e., the additive inverse) They're related in that when both concepts are defined, a negative number is the negation of a positive number. However, the two concepts don't coincide. I'm sure you know this, but even over the reals '-x' is the negation of a number, but not necessarily a negative number. (-a) * (-b) = a * b is an equation about #2, and it holds in any ring/field, even ones where #1 doesn't make sense, e.g. Z mod 5. If #1 makes sense, then this immediately implies that the product of two negative numbers is positive. My original point was that the blog post is talking about real numbers, for which #1 and #2 are both defined. However, if it's generalized to arbitrary rings/fields, where only #2 is defined, then you can't really refer to the equation '(-a) * (-b) = a * b' as 'the product of two negative numbers is positive'.

by akalin 7y ago

thaumasiotes 7y ago

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You claimed that negative and positive are defined by absolute reference to zero. I claimed that they aren't. But you're presenting an example that assumes I'm right and you're wrong! > For example, the integers mod n is a ring, so (-a) * (-b) = a * b holds, but it doesn't make sense to call a number mod n positive or negative, since -a mod n effectively means n - a mod n. If negative numbers were defined by reference to a comparison to zero, then the expression (-a) * (-b) would be meaningless nonsense in Z mod 5 -- as you point out yourself, Z mod 5 is not ordered in that way. But it isn't nonsense, and you're not saying it is -- instead, you assume it's obviously valid when you observe that the equality (-a)(-b) = ab holds.

akalin 7y ago
I guess I'm not being too clear, so I'll try again. There are two concepts: 1) Positive and negative numbers (defined in terms of comparison to 0) 2) The negation of a number (i.e., the additive inverse) They're related in that when both concepts are defined, a negative number is the negation of a positive number. However, the two concepts don't coincide. I'm sure you know this, but even over the reals '-x' is the negation of a number, but not necessarily a negative number. (-a) * (-b) = a * b is an equation about #2, and it holds in any ring/field, even ones where #1 doesn't make sense, e.g. Z mod 5. If #1 makes sense, then this immediately implies that the product of two negative numbers is positive. My original point was that the blog post is talking about real numbers, for which #1 and #2 are both defined. However, if it's generalized to arbitrary rings/fields, where only #2 is defined, then you can't really refer to the equation '(-a) * (-b) = a * b' as 'the product of two negative numbers is positive'.