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Not sure what you mean by "it's not a concept." I certainly don't see how "you", "here" and "now" are synonyms of consciousness, nor is the use of the terms in

Not sure what you mean by "it's not a concept." I certainly don't see how "you", "here" and "now" are synonyms of consciousness, nor is the use of the terms indicative of consciousness. Two simple machines that communicate with one another for some useful purpose could meaningfully and usefully use those terms (or equivalent symbols or codes), but that wouldn't make them conscious by the way most people use the word. Not seeing that at all, sorry. And certainly the words aren't synonyms "consciousness," in that you could replace the word "consciousness" with "you" (etc)

carapace 7y ago
> Not sure what you mean by "it's not a concept." You said it yourself above, when you try to define consciousness clearly and non-circularly it just kind of goes away as a concept. That's because it's the inconceivable medium of concepts. Conceptualizing consciousness is like trying to play silence on an instrument. You can't do it except by leaving it alone. > I certainly don't see how "you", "here" and "now" are synonyms of consciousness, nor is the use of the terms indicative of consciousness. Well, work on it for a while. You are that which is conscious. Everything else is content. You are always "here" and it is always "now". Subjective awareness. Even in dreams "you" are always "here" and it is always "now". Have you ever not been here? Or existed at a time that isn't now? It's not something you can think out or solve, it's a matter of perception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi#Self-enquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi#Self-enquiry
- robbrown451 7y ago
  Ok well "you", "here", and "now" have meanings that don't depend on consciousness at all. Two software programs on a network could use the terms quite meaningfully. For instance, instead of sending the current timestamp, it could send the message "now" as a shorthand for it. Instead of sending a name/network id of the machine it is communicating with, it could send the message "you" as shorthand for it. Instead of sending the latitude and longitude of the location of where it is, it could send "here" as shorthand for "where you already know I am". There are advantages and disadvantages to this (for instance, network latency could affect the meaning of "now" vs. a timestamp). If you are going to say it's "not a concept" you probably shouldn't then say it is synonomous with these other things. I would argue that it IS a concept, but it becomes an incoherent concept when analyzed closely. Or it becomes a very generalizable concept, one that applies perfectly well to manmade things like self driving cars and maybe even thermostats.
  - carapace 7y ago
    The symbolic symbols "you", "here", and "now" do not have intrinsic meanings at all. "Meaning" is something that happens within a context. We know that cooperating mechanical agents can evolve a kind of language because experiments have been done where that actually happens. It seems likely that something like this happened with humans: we evolved language including pronouns and time and place markers, etc. However, the phenomenon of self awareness that those symbols "point to" is unitary. Subjective awareness is you and you are always here and now. That's the "one weird trick" that humans do: we are capable of noticing and meta-commenting on our own self-awareness, even though that's technically impossible. You know how if you repeat a word over and over again it temporarily looses it's meaning as you become aware of the bizarre and arbitrary nature of the sounds you're making, yeah? Try that with the word "I" and see what happens. YMMV good luck.

carapace 7y ago

> Not sure what you mean by "it's not a concept." You said it yourself above, when you try to define consciousness clearly and non-circularly it just kind of goes away as a concept. That's because it's the inconceivable medium of concepts. Conceptualizing consciousness is like trying to play silence on an instrument. You can't do it except by leaving it alone. > I certainly don't see how "you", "here" and "now" are synonyms of consciousness, nor is the use of the terms indicative of consciousness. Well, work on it for a while. You are that which is conscious. Everything else is content. You are always "here" and it is always "now". Subjective awareness. Even in dreams "you" are always "here" and it is always "now". Have you ever not been here? Or existed at a time that isn't now? It's not something you can think out or solve, it's a matter of perception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi#Self-enquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi#Self-enquiry

robbrown451 7y ago
Ok well "you", "here", and "now" have meanings that don't depend on consciousness at all. Two software programs on a network could use the terms quite meaningfully. For instance, instead of sending the current timestamp, it could send the message "now" as a shorthand for it. Instead of sending a name/network id of the machine it is communicating with, it could send the message "you" as shorthand for it. Instead of sending the latitude and longitude of the location of where it is, it could send "here" as shorthand for "where you already know I am". There are advantages and disadvantages to this (for instance, network latency could affect the meaning of "now" vs. a timestamp). If you are going to say it's "not a concept" you probably shouldn't then say it is synonomous with these other things. I would argue that it IS a concept, but it becomes an incoherent concept when analyzed closely. Or it becomes a very generalizable concept, one that applies perfectly well to manmade things like self driving cars and maybe even thermostats.
- carapace 7y ago
  The symbolic symbols "you", "here", and "now" do not have intrinsic meanings at all. "Meaning" is something that happens within a context. We know that cooperating mechanical agents can evolve a kind of language because experiments have been done where that actually happens. It seems likely that something like this happened with humans: we evolved language including pronouns and time and place markers, etc. However, the phenomenon of self awareness that those symbols "point to" is unitary. Subjective awareness is you and you are always here and now. That's the "one weird trick" that humans do: we are capable of noticing and meta-commenting on our own self-awareness, even though that's technically impossible. You know how if you repeat a word over and over again it temporarily looses it's meaning as you become aware of the bizarre and arbitrary nature of the sounds you're making, yeah? Try that with the word "I" and see what happens. YMMV good luck.