4 ms·

In the real world, professional engineers are bonded and are liable for errors like lawyers.

by WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago

qeqeqeqe 7y ago
Are there many examples in the real world of this actually happening?
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  Close to home... yes, the FIU bridge engineers could have been charged with manslaughter (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article236597488.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article23659748...)
  - qeqeqeqe 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure anyone that works on something that kills people "could" be charged manslaughter. The entire PE system seems antiquated and obsolute.
  - fnordfnordfnord 7y ago
    Yes but that has nothing to do with the State Board of Engineering Examiners or whatever Florida's equivalent is.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- slavik81 7y ago
  The discipline notices for these sorts of organizations are always public. You can browse through the cases on their website [1]. Most of the enforcement actions against licensed professional engineers in Oregon seem to be for failing to complete their required professional development hours (e.g. [2]), though I did find an interesting case of a P.Eng. who was sanctioned for revealing client data [3]. [1]: https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplinary-Actions.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplin... [2] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20191112_3073_Kim.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019111... [3] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20190711_3131_Galli.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019071...
  - qeqeqeqe 7y ago
    Yeah, looking at the lists of violations makes it pretty clear that the system is obsolete. These are the same people that claimed they could fine every single engineer working at Intel for not technically being certified.
    - omegaham 7y ago
      I'm sure that if they actually started going after people, everyone's job title would magically shift to "Technology Developer" or something similar.
- NamTaf 7y ago
  Countless. Here's [1] an example of the Board pursuing a company and their Professional Enigneers for an org structure that facilitated signing off of engineering work without satisfying the 'direct supervision' clause of the act. Specifically, the guy signing it off was based about 1500 km away from the team doing the work, and the head of the team doing the work, who was in reality supervising it, was not qualified to do so as a Professional Engineer. As a second example, the coroner's investigation into the Dreamworld fatalities from a few years ago came out just last week [2,3]. In it the coroner recommended that the Board of Professional Engineers investigate the engineering firm that signed off the certification for the ride, over potential gross failures of practicing with due diligence. This may result in the approving Professional Engineer having their license to practice revoked. [1]: https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/case/id/76335 https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/case/id/76335 [2]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-24/dreamworld-accident-inquest-coroner-findings/11993742 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-24/dreamworld-accident-i... [3]: https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/dreamworld-inquest-coroner-hands-down-findings-on-thunder-river-rapids-ride-deaths-20200224-p543nl.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/dreamworld-inques...
Mirioron 7y ago
Are there jobs, other than being a judge or politician, where you are not liable for errors?
- lallysingh 7y ago
  Software engineer
  - wahern 7y ago
    Software engineers, like everybody else, are absolutely liable for errors. However, their work is invariably licensed using a contract that disclaims liability. Regulated professionals, by contrast, are often limited by law from disclaiming liability or otherwise shielding themselves from liability (e.g. by using a corporation). This is especially true for highly regarded professions like lawyers and doctors. Professionals and licensed workers more generally are also usually required to be bonded or carry insurance so that they're not judgment proof.[1] [1] The reason you would rarely see a software engineer employee (or any employee) sued for negligence is that it would be a waste of money--they wouldn't be able to to pay a judgment. You sue the employer not because the employee isn't liable, but because 1) it's easier to prove a case against an employer and 2) the employer is the only one able to afford a judgment. For example, if a UPS truck driver runs you over, you always sue UPS. You may or not may not sue the truck driver, but unless the truck driver is secretly rich it's UPS you're expecting to pay out.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  To cue up the old saw: Weathermen. "You can be wrong half the time and still have a job" har har har

In the real world, professional engineers are bonded and are liable for errors like lawyers.

qeqeqeqe 7y ago

Are there many examples in the real world of this actually happening?

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
Close to home... yes, the FIU bridge engineers could have been charged with manslaughter (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article236597488.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article23659748...)
- qeqeqeqe 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure anyone that works on something that kills people "could" be charged manslaughter. The entire PE system seems antiquated and obsolute.
- fnordfnordfnord 7y ago
  Yes but that has nothing to do with the State Board of Engineering Examiners or whatever Florida's equivalent is.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
slavik81 7y ago
The discipline notices for these sorts of organizations are always public. You can browse through the cases on their website [1]. Most of the enforcement actions against licensed professional engineers in Oregon seem to be for failing to complete their required professional development hours (e.g. [2]), though I did find an interesting case of a P.Eng. who was sanctioned for revealing client data [3]. [1]: https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplinary-Actions.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplin... [2] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20191112_3073_Kim.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019111... [3] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20190711_3131_Galli.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019071...
- qeqeqeqe 7y ago
  Yeah, looking at the lists of violations makes it pretty clear that the system is obsolete. These are the same people that claimed they could fine every single engineer working at Intel for not technically being certified.
  - omegaham 7y ago
    I'm sure that if they actually started going after people, everyone's job title would magically shift to "Technology Developer" or something similar.
NamTaf 7y ago
Countless. Here's [1] an example of the Board pursuing a company and their Professional Enigneers for an org structure that facilitated signing off of engineering work without satisfying the 'direct supervision' clause of the act. Specifically, the guy signing it off was based about 1500 km away from the team doing the work, and the head of the team doing the work, who was in reality supervising it, was not qualified to do so as a Professional Engineer. As a second example, the coroner's investigation into the Dreamworld fatalities from a few years ago came out just last week [2,3]. In it the coroner recommended that the Board of Professional Engineers investigate the engineering firm that signed off the certification for the ride, over potential gross failures of practicing with due diligence. This may result in the approving Professional Engineer having their license to practice revoked. [1]: https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/case/id/76335 https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/case/id/76335 [2]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-24/dreamworld-accident-inquest-coroner-findings/11993742 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-24/dreamworld-accident-i... [3]: https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/dreamworld-inquest-coroner-hands-down-findings-on-thunder-river-rapids-ride-deaths-20200224-p543nl.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/dreamworld-inques...

Mirioron 7y ago

Are there jobs, other than being a judge or politician, where you are not liable for errors?

lallysingh 7y ago
Software engineer
- wahern 7y ago
  Software engineers, like everybody else, are absolutely liable for errors. However, their work is invariably licensed using a contract that disclaims liability. Regulated professionals, by contrast, are often limited by law from disclaiming liability or otherwise shielding themselves from liability (e.g. by using a corporation). This is especially true for highly regarded professions like lawyers and doctors. Professionals and licensed workers more generally are also usually required to be bonded or carry insurance so that they're not judgment proof.[1] [1] The reason you would rarely see a software engineer employee (or any employee) sued for negligence is that it would be a waste of money--they wouldn't be able to to pay a judgment. You sue the employer not because the employee isn't liable, but because 1) it's easier to prove a case against an employer and 2) the employer is the only one able to afford a judgment. For example, if a UPS truck driver runs you over, you always sue UPS. You may or not may not sue the truck driver, but unless the truck driver is secretly rich it's UPS you're expecting to pay out.
blaser-waffle 7y ago
To cue up the old saw: Weathermen. "You can be wrong half the time and still have a job" har har har