4 ms·

Hah, the real world version of an internet argument I see time to time wherein people with engineering certifications are put off by software developers calling

Hah, the real world version of an internet argument I see time to time wherein people with engineering certifications are put off by software developers calling themselves engineers.

slavik81 7y ago
To be fair to Mats, I think he was a fully qualified engineer in Sweden. He was quite unreasonable in insisting on calling himself such in Oregon, but I suppose reasonable men don't change the world.
- qeqeqeqe 7y ago
  I didn't realize that one's knowledge and skill is a function of location.
  - stonogo 7y ago
    Different locations have different engineering codes. This is in part why US states do not recognize each other's PE assignations.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      I can understand why he couldn't be hired as a licensed engineer because of that, but that doesn't make him not an engineer. He wasn't arguing over something that relies on local standards anyway. A second is a second regardless where you are.
      - eesmith 7y ago
        FWIW, there are different types of seconds. Eg, Universal time seconds based on the Earth's rotation, and atomic clock seconds based on consensus. And leap smear seconds are variable length seconds to help merge one into the other. https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://developers.google.com/time/smear
- craftinator 7y ago
  I also find it intriguing that all of the Professional Engineers in Oregon, including ones involved in setting up the timing on the aforementioned yellow lights, failed (or chose not to) solve a basic kinematics problem like Mats did. Why did it take someone who was not a PE to fix this issue?
wenc 7y ago
In some jurisdictions (like Canada), the title "engineer" is a legally-protected term. Someone like me who has 3 engineering degrees -- but have not taken any licensing exams -- cannot officially use the title "engineer" on a business card without being liable to a fine. I can sort of see the intention behind laws like this, but I also think it's a bit of gatekeeping. The original intention was to prevent someone who isn't licensed from providing professional opinions and from signing plans without also being accountable/responsible for the outcomes. This is all well and good, except there are many engineering disciplines (outside of civil, mechanical, electrical... and even within them) where signing plans and providing professional-grade opinions are not the norm. My father was a practicing engineer for 30 years and has never had to sign a single plan, and so has never taken a licensing exam. A licensed engineer typically has an additional P.Eng. or P.E. title (Professional Engineer), and I agree that that title should be regulated like all other licensing titles. But the word "engineer" is so generic that it doesn't really make sense to try to legally protect it.
- akiselev 7y ago
  Are you sure you can't use the title "engineer"? I thought it was only the very specific term Professional Engineer that is legally protected, and what someone looking to hire a licensed engineer would be on the look out for. Edit: According to wikipedia, there are plenty of titles in Canada like locomotive engineer used by a train operator even though the position is unrelated to the Professional Engineer license [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...
  - wenc 7y ago
    Pretty sure, unless the law has changed from when I took the required professional practice courses in engineering school. (I went to schools in Quebec and Ontario) That part you cited in wikipedia has no citations and may not be legally correct. This is something that is codified in Ontario law [1] (not sure about other provinces, but I believe it is harmonized federally -- in Quebec the title ingenieur/engineer is protected.). This law has been tested several times (example in [2]). More info here [3]. Even Microsoft had to give up the use of the term "engineer" in Canada after being hit with lawsuits [4]. [1] https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 [2] https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-use-term-engineer-following-reported-dismissal-hydro-one https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-u... [3] https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions [4] https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/microsoft-gives-up-the-title-engineer-in-canada/1000000701/ https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/micro...

Hah, the real world version of an internet argument I see time to time wherein people with engineering certifications are put off by software developers calling themselves engineers.

slavik81 7y ago

To be fair to Mats, I think he was a fully qualified engineer in Sweden. He was quite unreasonable in insisting on calling himself such in Oregon, but I suppose reasonable men don't change the world.

qeqeqeqe 7y ago
I didn't realize that one's knowledge and skill is a function of location.
- stonogo 7y ago
  Different locations have different engineering codes. This is in part why US states do not recognize each other's PE assignations.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    I can understand why he couldn't be hired as a licensed engineer because of that, but that doesn't make him not an engineer. He wasn't arguing over something that relies on local standards anyway. A second is a second regardless where you are.
    - eesmith 7y ago
      FWIW, there are different types of seconds. Eg, Universal time seconds based on the Earth's rotation, and atomic clock seconds based on consensus. And leap smear seconds are variable length seconds to help merge one into the other. https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://developers.google.com/time/smear
craftinator 7y ago
I also find it intriguing that all of the Professional Engineers in Oregon, including ones involved in setting up the timing on the aforementioned yellow lights, failed (or chose not to) solve a basic kinematics problem like Mats did. Why did it take someone who was not a PE to fix this issue?

wenc 7y ago

In some jurisdictions (like Canada), the title "engineer" is a legally-protected term. Someone like me who has 3 engineering degrees -- but have not taken any licensing exams -- cannot officially use the title "engineer" on a business card without being liable to a fine. I can sort of see the intention behind laws like this, but I also think it's a bit of gatekeeping. The original intention was to prevent someone who isn't licensed from providing professional opinions and from signing plans without also being accountable/responsible for the outcomes. This is all well and good, except there are many engineering disciplines (outside of civil, mechanical, electrical... and even within them) where signing plans and providing professional-grade opinions are not the norm. My father was a practicing engineer for 30 years and has never had to sign a single plan, and so has never taken a licensing exam. A licensed engineer typically has an additional P.Eng. or P.E. title (Professional Engineer), and I agree that that title should be regulated like all other licensing titles. But the word "engineer" is so generic that it doesn't really make sense to try to legally protect it.

akiselev 7y ago
Are you sure you can't use the title "engineer"? I thought it was only the very specific term Professional Engineer that is legally protected, and what someone looking to hire a licensed engineer would be on the look out for. Edit: According to wikipedia, there are plenty of titles in Canada like locomotive engineer used by a train operator even though the position is unrelated to the Professional Engineer license [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...
- wenc 7y ago
  Pretty sure, unless the law has changed from when I took the required professional practice courses in engineering school. (I went to schools in Quebec and Ontario) That part you cited in wikipedia has no citations and may not be legally correct. This is something that is codified in Ontario law [1] (not sure about other provinces, but I believe it is harmonized federally -- in Quebec the title ingenieur/engineer is protected.). This law has been tested several times (example in [2]). More info here [3]. Even Microsoft had to give up the use of the term "engineer" in Canada after being hit with lawsuits [4]. [1] https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 [2] https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-use-term-engineer-following-reported-dismissal-hydro-one https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-u... [3] https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions [4] https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/microsoft-gives-up-the-title-engineer-in-canada/1000000701/ https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/micro...