8 ms·

To be fair the best French baguettes are crunchy and soft at the same time and have only water, flour, salt, sugar? and yeast, so nothing much to be afraid of t

To be fair the best French baguettes are crunchy and soft at the same time and have only water, flour, salt, sugar? and yeast, so nothing much to be afraid of there.

GuiA 7y ago
And they require an immense amount of skill to make, which means you can only find really good bread in communities where a baker artisan can run a sustainable business. In the age of home grocery delivery, it's an uphill battle. The number of bakers in France has steadily gone down over the past half century or so. It's been going up a bit recently due to the new phenomenon of upper class white collar workers who quit their job in their 30s to find meaning in their life to do something more "noble" like baking, but it remains to be seen what the long term impact of this will be. You can manufacture Twix and Cheetos at scale, but not baguettes.
- sjf 7y ago
  I disagree, since the 90s in Ireland every convenience store big enough to have a deli counter has been selling Cuisine de France baguettes. Usually as the popular breakfast roll or chicken fillet roll. They are mass produced and crispy, they are cooked in store by staff with no special training.
  - brians 7y ago
    What makes you think they have only those five ingredients? I’d bet on more gluten, malt, potato starch, a couple exotic salts, and more.
    - BigBubbleButt 7y ago
      https://www.innit.com/nutrition/cuisine-de-france-demi-baguette-french-bread/p/00667121001547 https://www.innit.com/nutrition/cuisine-de-france-demi-bague... It uses enriched flour (which I doubt makes much difference), but also adds conditioner which really is the culprit of being engineered for mass production.
    - roel_v 7y ago
      There is nothing wrong with most additives. Even so-called 'artisanal' bakers add 'bread improvers', which contain things like 'ascorbic acid' (ooohh scary! except that its common name is... vitamin C), enzymes or some fast sugars that are entirely converted to alcohol and CO2 by the yeast (i.e. they're just used as yeast feed, no extra sweetness to the final product). My mother used to work with a woman who later opened a bakery with her husband and they were well known in the surrounding area for their great bread and bread rolls (this was in Belgium - similar style of bread as in France, baguettes not quite as good but often very close; just saying this wasn't some American sogginess). When I got into making bread at home, I asked him about his special trick to make great bread. The first one was 'experience', i.e. practicing the procedure dozens of times until its perfectly repeatable. And the second was 'a pinch out of my special jar' which he bought from a generic wholesale baking supplies vendor, and which contained the things I mentioned above. I always add a crushed vitamin C tablet to bread I make; it really helps with the gluten development and the quality of the rise. But most online bread making communities are full of idiots who recoil in horror at such sacrilege - they're all like "if I wanted bread full of chemical additives, I'd buy it in the store" rollseyes. But if you suggest they add a squeeze of lemon juice they they're all cool with it, they just complain about they don't want the slight lemon taste to their bread. Sigh. Don't get me started on nitrate as a preservative in sausage making and the idiocy 'biological sausage makers' spew about that...
      - NikolaeVarius 7y ago
        Start renaming things MSG = Kombu Salt Nitrates = Celery Juice (though this is already done) HFCS = Artisnal Corn Sugar
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        "some American sogginess" The equation of American bread with Wonder Bread is really tired and offensive. Maybe you should spin some tale about how American flour is so, so, different that making bread with flour, salt, yeast and water is so different than in Europe and it comes out completely inedible to those of refined palate.
        7y ago
  - Kuinox 7y ago
    I didn't saw yet a single industrial baguette that was better than what my local baker does. Industrial one may be crispy but have nothing like a good one.
    - throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
      They’re pretty good though. And also cheaper. The same argument could be made of chips.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      You can take any random supermarket bread and say it happens to not be as good as your standard, but the process that makes it mass market, making the dough and freezing it in the factory, and baking it in a store, I don't believe has to meaningfully compromise the quality. I don't know how it would be better, but I don't think it has to be worse.
      - bigbaguette 7y ago
        The manufacturing process makes them worse. On a mass scale, every cent counts and the first thing to take a hit is the quality of the flour and the density of the dough. Then it's machine mixed, frozen, and baked in the very same condition at all time in electric ovens and that makes for a pretty forgettable taste and texture. The end result is nowhere near what a competent baker can do, working manually and especially when using for instance a wood fire oven
        eru 7y ago
        > On a mass scale, every cent counts and the first thing to take a hit is the quality of the flour and the density of the dough. Yes, but a better product can be sold for more. That's why they are making something resembling baguettes in the first place, and not just the cheapest loaf possible. (Not saying that in practice the factory baguettes are better than what your favourite baker does. Far from it.)
        7y ago
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  Same in Germany. The small bakeries are dying. But at least in Germany and France even the supermarket bread is way ahead of most even the fanciest US bread.
- user5994461 7y ago
  It's funny you'd say that, one of the thing that has been killing bakeries for the past 5 years is the broad adoption of bread making appliances. Small home appliances where you poor the ingredients, mostly half of water and half of flour, then it does the whole mixing and cooking by itself in a few hours. The bread always comes out warm and perfect. Making bread has never been easier. top sellers on amazon France: https://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/kitchen/57878031 https://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/kitchen/57878031
  - GuiA 7y ago
    For a family that eats a lot of bread it's certainly a functional option, but the bread that comes out of it is pretty bland texture wise.
  - fma 7y ago
    More like mass produced bread from the grocery store is good enough for busy lives. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/france-bakery-bread-paris-normandy-pastry-village-rural-life-a9198686.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/france-bakery-bread...
  - 0xff00ffee 7y ago
    I find it amusing that bread machines and the NYT "no knead bread recipe" differ essentially by a few trivial steps.
- eru 7y ago
  German factory-made bread is quite palatable. Even quite on par with what gets sold as artisanal bread in a lot of places. (Though the factory bread is not as good as the real good artisanal stuff, of course.) So, you can get pretty good quality food from an industrial process, if there's a big market willing to pay for it. It's not even expensive. Of course, if your consumers don't care or only care for the 'wrong' things, you get: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process
wisty 7y ago
Baguettes are not really healthier than chips. The same can be said for sushi (well sushi got some other stuff that's good for you, but let's just think weight loss). They're mostly just carbs. If Americans had sushi and baguettes they wouldn't be slim like the French and Japanese, they'd eat sushi till they are 110% full (the Japanese aim to not stuff themselves at meals) and then carry around a bag of baguettes for in-between grazing (the French prefer set meals). They'd also blame everything on their delicious national cuisine, rather than on themselves.
- ip26 7y ago
  Here's an interesting take I heard recently- in addition to the move to white flour, some also suspect the move away from slow, natural leavening (sourdough) to fast, industrial leavening (instant yeast) has contributed to making bread less healthy. In support of that claim, notice the low glycemic index of sourdough bread.
- porknubbins 7y ago
  You have to skip over a lot of chemistry to say baguettes are the same as chips. I’m not convinced food is all about macronutrients. I think frying things in hot oil has been shown to generate some potentially harmful substances though Im sure the jury is still out on how much you’d have to eat to be dangerous.
- fvncc 7y ago
  This is another factor to consider regarding carbs/starches, in addition to the more commonly known ones like GI: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch

To be fair the best French baguettes are crunchy and soft at the same time and have only water, flour, salt, sugar? and yeast, so nothing much to be afraid of there.

GuiA 7y ago

And they require an immense amount of skill to make, which means you can only find really good bread in communities where a baker artisan can run a sustainable business. In the age of home grocery delivery, it's an uphill battle. The number of bakers in France has steadily gone down over the past half century or so. It's been going up a bit recently due to the new phenomenon of upper class white collar workers who quit their job in their 30s to find meaning in their life to do something more "noble" like baking, but it remains to be seen what the long term impact of this will be. You can manufacture Twix and Cheetos at scale, but not baguettes.

sjf 7y ago
I disagree, since the 90s in Ireland every convenience store big enough to have a deli counter has been selling Cuisine de France baguettes. Usually as the popular breakfast roll or chicken fillet roll. They are mass produced and crispy, they are cooked in store by staff with no special training.
- brians 7y ago
  What makes you think they have only those five ingredients? I’d bet on more gluten, malt, potato starch, a couple exotic salts, and more.
  - BigBubbleButt 7y ago
    https://www.innit.com/nutrition/cuisine-de-france-demi-baguette-french-bread/p/00667121001547 https://www.innit.com/nutrition/cuisine-de-france-demi-bague... It uses enriched flour (which I doubt makes much difference), but also adds conditioner which really is the culprit of being engineered for mass production.
  - roel_v 7y ago
    There is nothing wrong with most additives. Even so-called 'artisanal' bakers add 'bread improvers', which contain things like 'ascorbic acid' (ooohh scary! except that its common name is... vitamin C), enzymes or some fast sugars that are entirely converted to alcohol and CO2 by the yeast (i.e. they're just used as yeast feed, no extra sweetness to the final product). My mother used to work with a woman who later opened a bakery with her husband and they were well known in the surrounding area for their great bread and bread rolls (this was in Belgium - similar style of bread as in France, baguettes not quite as good but often very close; just saying this wasn't some American sogginess). When I got into making bread at home, I asked him about his special trick to make great bread. The first one was 'experience', i.e. practicing the procedure dozens of times until its perfectly repeatable. And the second was 'a pinch out of my special jar' which he bought from a generic wholesale baking supplies vendor, and which contained the things I mentioned above. I always add a crushed vitamin C tablet to bread I make; it really helps with the gluten development and the quality of the rise. But most online bread making communities are full of idiots who recoil in horror at such sacrilege - they're all like "if I wanted bread full of chemical additives, I'd buy it in the store" rollseyes. But if you suggest they add a squeeze of lemon juice they they're all cool with it, they just complain about they don't want the slight lemon taste to their bread. Sigh. Don't get me started on nitrate as a preservative in sausage making and the idiocy 'biological sausage makers' spew about that...
    - NikolaeVarius 7y ago
      Start renaming things MSG = Kombu Salt Nitrates = Celery Juice (though this is already done) HFCS = Artisnal Corn Sugar
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      "some American sogginess" The equation of American bread with Wonder Bread is really tired and offensive. Maybe you should spin some tale about how American flour is so, so, different that making bread with flour, salt, yeast and water is so different than in Europe and it comes out completely inedible to those of refined palate.
      - 7y ago
- Kuinox 7y ago
  I didn't saw yet a single industrial baguette that was better than what my local baker does. Industrial one may be crispy but have nothing like a good one.
  - throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
    They’re pretty good though. And also cheaper. The same argument could be made of chips.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    You can take any random supermarket bread and say it happens to not be as good as your standard, but the process that makes it mass market, making the dough and freezing it in the factory, and baking it in a store, I don't believe has to meaningfully compromise the quality. I don't know how it would be better, but I don't think it has to be worse.
    - bigbaguette 7y ago
      The manufacturing process makes them worse. On a mass scale, every cent counts and the first thing to take a hit is the quality of the flour and the density of the dough. Then it's machine mixed, frozen, and baked in the very same condition at all time in electric ovens and that makes for a pretty forgettable taste and texture. The end result is nowhere near what a competent baker can do, working manually and especially when using for instance a wood fire oven
      - eru 7y ago
        > On a mass scale, every cent counts and the first thing to take a hit is the quality of the flour and the density of the dough. Yes, but a better product can be sold for more. That's why they are making something resembling baguettes in the first place, and not just the cheapest loaf possible. (Not saying that in practice the factory baguettes are better than what your favourite baker does. Far from it.)
        7y ago
Ididntdothis 7y ago
Same in Germany. The small bakeries are dying. But at least in Germany and France even the supermarket bread is way ahead of most even the fanciest US bread.
user5994461 7y ago
It's funny you'd say that, one of the thing that has been killing bakeries for the past 5 years is the broad adoption of bread making appliances. Small home appliances where you poor the ingredients, mostly half of water and half of flour, then it does the whole mixing and cooking by itself in a few hours. The bread always comes out warm and perfect. Making bread has never been easier. top sellers on amazon France: https://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/kitchen/57878031 https://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/kitchen/57878031
- GuiA 7y ago
  For a family that eats a lot of bread it's certainly a functional option, but the bread that comes out of it is pretty bland texture wise.
- fma 7y ago
  More like mass produced bread from the grocery store is good enough for busy lives. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/france-bakery-bread-paris-normandy-pastry-village-rural-life-a9198686.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/france-bakery-bread...
- 0xff00ffee 7y ago
  I find it amusing that bread machines and the NYT "no knead bread recipe" differ essentially by a few trivial steps.
eru 7y ago
German factory-made bread is quite palatable. Even quite on par with what gets sold as artisanal bread in a lot of places. (Though the factory bread is not as good as the real good artisanal stuff, of course.) So, you can get pretty good quality food from an industrial process, if there's a big market willing to pay for it. It's not even expensive. Of course, if your consumers don't care or only care for the 'wrong' things, you get: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

wisty 7y ago

Baguettes are not really healthier than chips. The same can be said for sushi (well sushi got some other stuff that's good for you, but let's just think weight loss). They're mostly just carbs. If Americans had sushi and baguettes they wouldn't be slim like the French and Japanese, they'd eat sushi till they are 110% full (the Japanese aim to not stuff themselves at meals) and then carry around a bag of baguettes for in-between grazing (the French prefer set meals). They'd also blame everything on their delicious national cuisine, rather than on themselves.

ip26 7y ago
Here's an interesting take I heard recently- in addition to the move to white flour, some also suspect the move away from slow, natural leavening (sourdough) to fast, industrial leavening (instant yeast) has contributed to making bread less healthy. In support of that claim, notice the low glycemic index of sourdough bread.
porknubbins 7y ago
You have to skip over a lot of chemistry to say baguettes are the same as chips. I’m not convinced food is all about macronutrients. I think frying things in hot oil has been shown to generate some potentially harmful substances though Im sure the jury is still out on how much you’d have to eat to be dangerous.
fvncc 7y ago
This is another factor to consider regarding carbs/starches, in addition to the more commonly known ones like GI: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch