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"As for talented potential employees… that’s tougher" No kidding. What Montreal has going is pretty impressive, but Quebec has an abnormally high personal inc
by imack 16y ago
"As for talented potential employees… that’s tougher"
No kidding. What Montreal has going is pretty impressive, but Quebec has an abnormally high personal income tax rate and the language issue is always going to hang like a cloud over it. I know everyone in Montreal speaks english, but the default is French and all public signs are too. While some Canadians will put up with that because our country is founded on playing lip service to bi-lingualism, I can see it as a massive barrier to importing American talent in.
- evanprodromou 16y agoI don't agree. I think that the bilingualism is a strength. After all, the strongest Open Source markets in the world today are international. If Montreal can represent a bridge between North America and Europe, there's an opportunity for synergy there.
- nkassis 16y agoFor localization purposes, people in Montreal are experienced with issues that are required to translate software properly. They deal with this stuff all the time for local businesses.
- piranha 16y agoOh well, this happens everywhere in non-english-speaking countries.
- arach 16y agoWhen your default market is multilingual, you don't just translate your software, you deal with supporting more than one language from the start. I don't know how many markets are bilingual by default. I'm not saying that internationalization is the hardest problem to grasp, but there is a difference between building a single language system versus a multilingual system. [edit] re: > non-english-speaking countries When your non-english-speaking country also speaks english, you're happier.
- yummyfajitas 16y agoHow will Montreal represent a bridge to anyplace besides France? While France isn't nothing (60 million people with a bit less disposable income than the US), USA+Canada+France is less than 20% bigger than USA+Canada.
- imack 16y agoAdding to your point, it is very important to note that France French != Quebec French. When a Montrealer goes to Paris and starts speaking French, the Parisian will get confused and respond in English if they know it.
- arach 16y agoI think you're exaggerating. Parisians may tease Quebecers, but that's just to keep themselves in teasing shape. Teasing is a sport, you gotta practice. Most French people will be able to understand most Montrealers. It should be noted that France itself has many regional accents that are quite strong. Also to be noted, there is a steady flow of young French people immigrating to Montreal.
- danudey 16y agoMost French people will be able to understand most Montrealers sometimes, in the same way that someone from Britain would be able to understand a Cajun sometimes. The language is very divergent, with franglais words sprinkled here or there, shortened words, differing word usage, etc. On top of that, for the reasons above as well as others (including their accent), people from France really dislike listening to people from Montreal speak 'French', and will avoid it whenever possible. This is similar to the way Francophones from Montreal will speak English rather than French to an Acadian, because their accent is really just that bad.
- arach 16y agoI don't know enough about the Cajun English language to comment on your analogy. For what it's worth, here is wikipedia's article on Quebec French [citation needed] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French#Mutual_intelligibility_with_other_varieties_of_French http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French#Mutual_intelligib... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French#Overview_of_the_relation_to_European_French http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French#Overview_of_the_r...
- ianl 16y agoI'm going to be graduating soon from Dalhousie in Halifax with a BCSci, and I would be more than willing to move to Montreal. You won't import American talent to Montreal however, why would they come to Canada when they can move to New York, Boston, Seattle, or the mecca of technology in North America Silicon Valley. This doesn't mean that Montreal won't be a technology hub, but it has to compete with Waterloo which has a lot of draw for new graduates. I know several of my graduating class have already secured jobs in Waterloo.
- evanprodromou 16y agoI can't name an Open Source startup in Waterloo. Is there one?
- nkassis 16y agoMontreal has some pretty good universities too. There a lot of graduates here that would stay here for work except Google/Microsoft ... are stealing all of them.
- potatolicious 16y ago> "why would they come to Canada when they can move to New York, Boston, Seattle, or the mecca of technology in North America Silicon Valley" As a Canadian working in Seattle... come here for a visit. There are a lot of Canadians in all of the above places, and most of them are just itching for a chance to go home. Cost of living, social stratification (in a way that we really don't feel in Canada), health care... the list goes on. Not to mention, if you like the whole metropolitan lifestyle, the Valley really cannot compete, nor Seattle (found that out the hard way)... and NYC/Boston are much more expensive than Toronto/Montreal.
- neilc 16y agoif you like the whole metropolitan lifestyle, the Valley really cannot compete There is a ton of startup activity in SF these days, as opposed to the Valley proper. Cost of living in SF is higher than in Toronto, but not by an enormous amount if you want to live downtown (Montreal is cheaper though).
- Maciek416 16y agoI think climate also counts too. I can't remember where I saw this mentioned in the context of tech startups (pg's essays, probably), but if you're good enough and ambitious enough to choose whatever location you like, why not choose a location that has all the "nice place to live" qualities? Not to mention, "a nice place that wealthy tech investors want to live in". Last week I saw Lane Becker give a talk at SproutUp here in Toronto. He's originally from Winnipeg, but was pretty blunt about the climate in California vs Canada. There's no way he'd ever come back. It's not the first time I've heard it. Taxes, business, and tech-investment-friendly environment issues aside, this is a major weakness that our bigger eastern cities (Toronto, Kitchener-Waterloo, Ottawa, Montreal..) need to make up for in other ways. What things can we use to make up for our crummy climates? I'm not sure... but I don't think local pride, ambition, or even "we have smart people" really resonate with anyone outside of those locales. Smart people are everywhere, and are globally-mobile.
- impendia 16y ago"I don't think local pride, ambition, or even "we have smart people" really resonate with anyone outside of those locales. Smart people are everywhere..." Disagree. I've never been to Montreal, but I've heard from people who are from there and would jump at a chance to live there for awhile. Smart, creative, talented people are everywhere, but in some places there are many more of them and they are easier to find. Cold winters will turn off a sizable number of people, yes, but many would be undeterred.
- olalonde 16y agoMontreal girls make up for the climate ;)
- jeromegn 16y agoPersonal income tax may be higher, but the advantages far outweigh the cost. I'm thinking about: free healthcare, extremely low electricity cost, cheap rent (pretty much half as much as SF's rent) and everything that comes with living in a major city. RE French: Ever learned a new programming language to go work somewhere? What's the difference? You don't have to be fluent in French, you have to understand it enough to read signs (which are usually just street or landmarks names with a symbol). I see this more as a great opportunity to become a better candidate in the future - by knowing another language. I completely understand your reluctance, but you have to look at the bigger picture.
- andrewvc 16y agoI spent a week in Montreal a few months ago, I'm an American and speak no french at all, and I didn't have any issues. All in all, I found it a pretty cool place to spend time, and somewhere I'd consider moving. I even spent a day at a pretty nice coworking spot there: http://station-c.com/en http://station-c.com/en
- danudey 16y agoYou can get all of those benefits by living in Vancouver (though rent isn't as cheap here, apartments and suites are much better maintained). On top of that, the weather is better, the people are friendlier, and you don't have to worry as much about not getting a position solely because your language skills aren't up to snuff.
- jeromegn 16y agoI guess my comment (apart from the French part) applies to most big cities in Canada. Thanks for pointing that out. "the people are friendlier" is too subjective though, can't really be sure of that. Getting a position in a startup or open source team here isn't up to spoken language (unless like said early, it's customer facing). I think startups here prefer English. French is just that little extra (sad thing to say, but it's the truth).
- danudey 16y ago
- fatso784 16y agoBeing an American programmer going to university in Montreal, I totally agree with this statement. :D
- sedachv 16y agoMontreal companies have absolutely no problem hiring programmers who don't speak French (I'm the sole anglophone at my company, and they found me). The real losers end up being the native Quebecers. There are really good programmers here working for pennies because they don't know enough English to move to or contract for companies in the Bay Area or NYC. This is true for a lot of other knowledge/creative professionals in Montreal as well. If you look at Montreal neighborhoods and professions, you find that the ones where management and finance dominates are also the ones with mostly anglophones (of course Westmount dominates), and the ones with the highest incomes. The irony of francization is that it is creating an economic ghetto out of the native French speakers.
- olalonde 16y agoAnglophones having highest incomes in Quebec is an old myth. In fact, a recent report from Statistics Canada (StatsCan) shows that English-speakers have a lower median income than francophones with the same qualifications.[1] Furthermore, I highly doubt that the fact "you could be working in NYC if you wanted to" has any influence on your salary. Finally, even if what you stated was true regarding francization, it wouldn't be ironic at all. Francization isn't there to help out the economy, it's there to protect a culture. /rant :) [1] http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2010/09/quebec_anglo_incomes_lagging/ http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2010/09/quebec_anglo_incomes_lagg...
- sedachv 16y agoNote what the article states: "The majority of migrants to Quebec are English-speaking – 33 per cent of the anglophone population is made up of immigrants, compared to only 7 per cent of the French-speaking population – and inflows of foreign migrants contribute to higher poverty rates among anglophones." "A wealthy minority exists within the anglophone community, skewing their average income data upwards" It is this Westmount/West Island wealthy minority I'm referring to when I say you should look at occupation and income levels. There's no surprise blue-collar francophones earn more - that was the whole impetus behind the Quiet Revolution. Programmer salaries in NYC are about three times what they are in Montreal, while the cost of living is only about twice as high. Salaries in the US have a very real effect on Canadian ones - it's so easy to get a NAFTA visa that the US and Canada basically share a labor market of programmers.