7 ms·

The engineering association didn't really fine him for the campaign itself. They were upset that he claimed to be an engineer when making his arguments, despite

The engineering association didn't really fine him for the campaign itself. They were upset that he claimed to be an engineer when making his arguments, despite not being licensed in that state. Even then, they gave him repeated warnings before issuing the fine. In the end, the courts ruled in his favour. As a matter of freedom of expression, anyone can now claim to be an engineer in the state of Oregon.

sjtindell 7y ago
Hah, the real world version of an internet argument I see time to time wherein people with engineering certifications are put off by software developers calling themselves engineers.
- slavik81 7y ago
  To be fair to Mats, I think he was a fully qualified engineer in Sweden. He was quite unreasonable in insisting on calling himself such in Oregon, but I suppose reasonable men don't change the world.
  - qeqeqeqe 7y ago
    I didn't realize that one's knowledge and skill is a function of location.
    - stonogo 7y ago
      Different locations have different engineering codes. This is in part why US states do not recognize each other's PE assignations.
      - Mirioron 7y ago
        I can understand why he couldn't be hired as a licensed engineer because of that, but that doesn't make him not an engineer. He wasn't arguing over something that relies on local standards anyway. A second is a second regardless where you are.
        eesmith 7y ago
        FWIW, there are different types of seconds. Eg, Universal time seconds based on the Earth's rotation, and atomic clock seconds based on consensus. And leap smear seconds are variable length seconds to help merge one into the other. https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://developers.google.com/time/smear
  - craftinator 7y ago
    I also find it intriguing that all of the Professional Engineers in Oregon, including ones involved in setting up the timing on the aforementioned yellow lights, failed (or chose not to) solve a basic kinematics problem like Mats did. Why did it take someone who was not a PE to fix this issue?
- wenc 7y ago
  In some jurisdictions (like Canada), the title "engineer" is a legally-protected term. Someone like me who has 3 engineering degrees -- but have not taken any licensing exams -- cannot officially use the title "engineer" on a business card without being liable to a fine. I can sort of see the intention behind laws like this, but I also think it's a bit of gatekeeping. The original intention was to prevent someone who isn't licensed from providing professional opinions and from signing plans without also being accountable/responsible for the outcomes. This is all well and good, except there are many engineering disciplines (outside of civil, mechanical, electrical... and even within them) where signing plans and providing professional-grade opinions are not the norm. My father was a practicing engineer for 30 years and has never had to sign a single plan, and so has never taken a licensing exam. A licensed engineer typically has an additional P.Eng. or P.E. title (Professional Engineer), and I agree that that title should be regulated like all other licensing titles. But the word "engineer" is so generic that it doesn't really make sense to try to legally protect it.
  - akiselev 7y ago
    Are you sure you can't use the title "engineer"? I thought it was only the very specific term Professional Engineer that is legally protected, and what someone looking to hire a licensed engineer would be on the look out for. Edit: According to wikipedia, there are plenty of titles in Canada like locomotive engineer used by a train operator even though the position is unrelated to the Professional Engineer license [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...
    - wenc 7y ago
      Pretty sure, unless the law has changed from when I took the required professional practice courses in engineering school. (I went to schools in Quebec and Ontario) That part you cited in wikipedia has no citations and may not be legally correct. This is something that is codified in Ontario law [1] (not sure about other provinces, but I believe it is harmonized federally -- in Quebec the title ingenieur/engineer is protected.). This law has been tested several times (example in [2]). More info here [3]. Even Microsoft had to give up the use of the term "engineer" in Canada after being hit with lawsuits [4]. [1] https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 [2] https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-use-term-engineer-following-reported-dismissal-hydro-one https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-u... [3] https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions [4] https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/microsoft-gives-up-the-title-engineer-in-canada/1000000701/ https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/micro...
crooked-v 7y ago
In the context of what was basically "I have been educated as an engineer, which is why you should be giving me more credence than a random person", I feel the use of the word is perfectly fine.
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  In the real world, professional engineers are bonded and are liable for errors like lawyers.
  - qeqeqeqe 7y ago
    Are there many examples in the real world of this actually happening?
    - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
      Close to home... yes, the FIU bridge engineers could have been charged with manslaughter (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article236597488.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article23659748...)
      - qeqeqeqe 7y ago
        I'm pretty sure anyone that works on something that kills people "could" be charged manslaughter. The entire PE system seems antiquated and obsolute.
      - fnordfnordfnord 7y ago
        Yes but that has nothing to do with the State Board of Engineering Examiners or whatever Florida's equivalent is.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - slavik81 7y ago
      The discipline notices for these sorts of organizations are always public. You can browse through the cases on their website [1]. Most of the enforcement actions against licensed professional engineers in Oregon seem to be for failing to complete their required professional development hours (e.g. [2]), though I did find an interesting case of a P.Eng. who was sanctioned for revealing client data [3]. [1]: https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplinary-Actions.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplin... [2] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20191112_3073_Kim.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019111... [3] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20190711_3131_Galli.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019071...
SilasX 7y ago
My problem with that has always been ... If they were actually going out and enforcing that law generally, then it would have been reasonable. Maybe it would be a stupid law, but they'd be even-handed about it. But, there's like, a ton of people you can find in five minutes on LinkedIn who are using "engineer" in the same way. They could have easily cracked down on that. Instead, they leave the law mostly unenforced, and then throw the book at you the moment you make the government look bad with a well-documented study of traffic lights. What a crock. That's a blatant abuse of power.

sjtindell 7y ago

Hah, the real world version of an internet argument I see time to time wherein people with engineering certifications are put off by software developers calling themselves engineers.

slavik81 7y ago
To be fair to Mats, I think he was a fully qualified engineer in Sweden. He was quite unreasonable in insisting on calling himself such in Oregon, but I suppose reasonable men don't change the world.
- qeqeqeqe 7y ago
  I didn't realize that one's knowledge and skill is a function of location.
  - stonogo 7y ago
    Different locations have different engineering codes. This is in part why US states do not recognize each other's PE assignations.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      I can understand why he couldn't be hired as a licensed engineer because of that, but that doesn't make him not an engineer. He wasn't arguing over something that relies on local standards anyway. A second is a second regardless where you are.
      - eesmith 7y ago
        FWIW, there are different types of seconds. Eg, Universal time seconds based on the Earth's rotation, and atomic clock seconds based on consensus. And leap smear seconds are variable length seconds to help merge one into the other. https://developers.google.com/time/smear https://developers.google.com/time/smear
- craftinator 7y ago
  I also find it intriguing that all of the Professional Engineers in Oregon, including ones involved in setting up the timing on the aforementioned yellow lights, failed (or chose not to) solve a basic kinematics problem like Mats did. Why did it take someone who was not a PE to fix this issue?
wenc 7y ago
In some jurisdictions (like Canada), the title "engineer" is a legally-protected term. Someone like me who has 3 engineering degrees -- but have not taken any licensing exams -- cannot officially use the title "engineer" on a business card without being liable to a fine. I can sort of see the intention behind laws like this, but I also think it's a bit of gatekeeping. The original intention was to prevent someone who isn't licensed from providing professional opinions and from signing plans without also being accountable/responsible for the outcomes. This is all well and good, except there are many engineering disciplines (outside of civil, mechanical, electrical... and even within them) where signing plans and providing professional-grade opinions are not the norm. My father was a practicing engineer for 30 years and has never had to sign a single plan, and so has never taken a licensing exam. A licensed engineer typically has an additional P.Eng. or P.E. title (Professional Engineer), and I agree that that title should be regulated like all other licensing titles. But the word "engineer" is so generic that it doesn't really make sense to try to legally protect it.
- akiselev 7y ago
  Are you sure you can't use the title "engineer"? I thought it was only the very specific term Professional Engineer that is legally protected, and what someone looking to hire a licensed engineer would be on the look out for. Edit: According to wikipedia, there are plenty of titles in Canada like locomotive engineer used by a train operator even though the position is unrelated to the Professional Engineer license [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...
  - wenc 7y ago
    Pretty sure, unless the law has changed from when I took the required professional practice courses in engineering school. (I went to schools in Quebec and Ontario) That part you cited in wikipedia has no citations and may not be legally correct. This is something that is codified in Ontario law [1] (not sure about other provinces, but I believe it is harmonized federally -- in Quebec the title ingenieur/engineer is protected.). This law has been tested several times (example in [2]). More info here [3]. Even Microsoft had to give up the use of the term "engineer" in Canada after being hit with lawsuits [4]. [1] https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p28#BK43 [2] https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-use-term-engineer-following-reported-dismissal-hydro-one https://www.peo.on.ca/engineering-licensing-body-clarifies-u... [3] https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions https://engineerscanada.ca/frequently-asked-questions [4] https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/microsoft-gives-up-the-title-engineer-in-canada/1000000701/ https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/engineering/micro...

crooked-v 7y ago

In the context of what was basically "I have been educated as an engineer, which is why you should be giving me more credence than a random person", I feel the use of the word is perfectly fine.

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
In the real world, professional engineers are bonded and are liable for errors like lawyers.
- qeqeqeqe 7y ago
  Are there many examples in the real world of this actually happening?
  - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
    Close to home... yes, the FIU bridge engineers could have been charged with manslaughter (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article236597488.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article23659748...)
    - qeqeqeqe 7y ago
      I'm pretty sure anyone that works on something that kills people "could" be charged manslaughter. The entire PE system seems antiquated and obsolute.
    - fnordfnordfnord 7y ago
      Yes but that has nothing to do with the State Board of Engineering Examiners or whatever Florida's equivalent is.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - slavik81 7y ago
    The discipline notices for these sorts of organizations are always public. You can browse through the cases on their website [1]. Most of the enforcement actions against licensed professional engineers in Oregon seem to be for failing to complete their required professional development hours (e.g. [2]), though I did find an interesting case of a P.Eng. who was sanctioned for revealing client data [3]. [1]: https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplinary-Actions.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/rulesstatutes/Pages/Disciplin... [2] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20191112_3073_Kim.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019111... [3] https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/20190711_3131_Galli.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/Documents/FinalOrders/2019071...

SilasX 7y ago

My problem with that has always been ... If they were actually going out and enforcing that law generally, then it would have been reasonable. Maybe it would be a stupid law, but they'd be even-handed about it. But, there's like, a ton of people you can find in five minutes on LinkedIn who are using "engineer" in the same way. They could have easily cracked down on that. Instead, they leave the law mostly unenforced, and then throw the book at you the moment you make the government look bad with a well-documented study of traffic lights. What a crock. That's a blatant abuse of power.