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What is this basic bullshit? Who makes China so polluted? Are the Chinese themselves consuming all the shit they make that makes their cities polluted? Or is it

What is this basic bullshit? Who makes China so polluted? Are the Chinese themselves consuming all the shit they make that makes their cities polluted? Or is it the rest of the world and China grew by being a massive net exporter? This is like how the British lamented about the abject poverty in India after raping the country for hundreds of years. "willing to spend effort on the environment" my ass. Move the production chains back into those countries. We'll see how long the air remains clear despite temperate latitudes having the benefit of better weather systems.

xupybd 7y ago
As China gets wealth they will reduce their environmental impact. They will have the money to do so. It's not blaming them to state that poorer countries don't have the resources to clean up their production. Progress is required to develop clean energy, that will require economic activity.
- uk_programmer 7y ago
  China (as in the Chinese Government as the ruling class there aren't the people) would have to actually care about something other than themselves. The Government that is in place does not care about Human Life or Suffering why would you think they would care for the Animals, Birds and Fish?
  - boomboomsubban 7y ago
    Even accepting you're incredibly cynical view of the Chinese state, they would care about nature as it has an influence on their lives.
    - uk_programmer 7y ago
      It isn't a cynical view. it is reality. The Chinese state have shown ever since Mao they have little or no regard for Human life. Off the top of my head (I am sure there is much more): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Treatment_of_villagers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Treatment_o... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 Also their response so far to the current Epidemic i.e. trying to cover it up has cost the lives of people in many countries. But apparently I am being cynical ...
      - powerapple 7y ago
        China reported cases to WHO by the end of December. Maybe they didn't manage it well (i.e. didn't block the whole city when cases were discovered maybe), it is a tough decision. It is so easy to say what to do now when you have seen everything. How is British care about humans when they started forcing Opium trade to China?
        uk_programmer 7y ago
        > How is British care about humans when they started forcing Opium trade to China? The fact of the matter is that the Chinese Government don't care about anyone except themselves and if you think for a second that they give a crap about the environment you are severely mistaken. If you are going to engage in whataboutery especially things that happened well over a century ago and trying to compare the British Empire to the Chinese Regime that has killed over 50 million while it has been in place is either wholly ignorant or disingenuous. I am not going to bother talking to you.
      - LessDmesg 7y ago
        They have even less regard for the environment. China's soil is polluted and eroded with callous farming practices, their animal life has been nearly exterminated thanks to their primitive beliefs in traditional medicine, their air and water are polluted with heavy metals (and whistleblowers are persecuted). This absolute disregard for the environment is one of the reasons China has become the world's industrial powerhouse in the first place: they literally chose to be a toxic wasteland to win the world's investment money.
- yibg 7y ago
  There is a pretty strong correlation between wealth and environmental impact. Wealthier countries are in general not great for the environment.
- hnews_account_1 7y ago
  Entirely missing the point. It isn't "poor country has unclean air", it is "mass producer has unclean air". There are no technologies that rich countries are hoarding and using to clean their air that is too costly for poorer nations. If you moved all of this production back to developed countries, their air won't be clean either. Just because China took the hit of having unclean air in order to manufacture stuff for the world's needs so it could raise its population from poverty, doesn't mean that they don't have enough money to get any rich country tech that can clean the air. No technology can work effective enough at the rate that China manufactures shit that all developed countries use without realising where it's sourced from.
LessDmesg 7y ago
In the long run, economical and industrial progress is still better for the environment. The key is new technologies. There is no pollution that cannot be cleaned up, the question is only in the cost, and that depends directly on the tech. Ultimately, any piece of trash or a dangerous chemical can be separated into atoms (e.g. with a plasma burner) that can be separated into pure chemical elements that then can be used to create products or chemically neutralized. The problem is only in the cost of energy, and that's, again, a question of tech. With fusion reactors, we'll have a way to solve world's pollution problems easily. So yes, developed countries ARE moving towards a clean environment. The solution is to move faster, not try to slow down the progress in economy, industry and technology with greenie measures that achieve only temporary pollution slow-down while postponing the real future solutions.
heavenlyblue 7y ago
British still lament about that, don’t be mistaken. Not all of them, but many still do.

xupybd 7y ago

As China gets wealth they will reduce their environmental impact. They will have the money to do so. It's not blaming them to state that poorer countries don't have the resources to clean up their production. Progress is required to develop clean energy, that will require economic activity.

uk_programmer 7y ago
China (as in the Chinese Government as the ruling class there aren't the people) would have to actually care about something other than themselves. The Government that is in place does not care about Human Life or Suffering why would you think they would care for the Animals, Birds and Fish?
- boomboomsubban 7y ago
  Even accepting you're incredibly cynical view of the Chinese state, they would care about nature as it has an influence on their lives.
  - uk_programmer 7y ago
    It isn't a cynical view. it is reality. The Chinese state have shown ever since Mao they have little or no regard for Human life. Off the top of my head (I am sure there is much more): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Treatment_of_villagers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Treatment_o... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 Also their response so far to the current Epidemic i.e. trying to cover it up has cost the lives of people in many countries. But apparently I am being cynical ...
    - powerapple 7y ago
      China reported cases to WHO by the end of December. Maybe they didn't manage it well (i.e. didn't block the whole city when cases were discovered maybe), it is a tough decision. It is so easy to say what to do now when you have seen everything. How is British care about humans when they started forcing Opium trade to China?
      - uk_programmer 7y ago
        > How is British care about humans when they started forcing Opium trade to China? The fact of the matter is that the Chinese Government don't care about anyone except themselves and if you think for a second that they give a crap about the environment you are severely mistaken. If you are going to engage in whataboutery especially things that happened well over a century ago and trying to compare the British Empire to the Chinese Regime that has killed over 50 million while it has been in place is either wholly ignorant or disingenuous. I am not going to bother talking to you.
    - LessDmesg 7y ago
      They have even less regard for the environment. China's soil is polluted and eroded with callous farming practices, their animal life has been nearly exterminated thanks to their primitive beliefs in traditional medicine, their air and water are polluted with heavy metals (and whistleblowers are persecuted). This absolute disregard for the environment is one of the reasons China has become the world's industrial powerhouse in the first place: they literally chose to be a toxic wasteland to win the world's investment money.
yibg 7y ago
There is a pretty strong correlation between wealth and environmental impact. Wealthier countries are in general not great for the environment.
hnews_account_1 7y ago
Entirely missing the point. It isn't "poor country has unclean air", it is "mass producer has unclean air". There are no technologies that rich countries are hoarding and using to clean their air that is too costly for poorer nations. If you moved all of this production back to developed countries, their air won't be clean either. Just because China took the hit of having unclean air in order to manufacture stuff for the world's needs so it could raise its population from poverty, doesn't mean that they don't have enough money to get any rich country tech that can clean the air. No technology can work effective enough at the rate that China manufactures shit that all developed countries use without realising where it's sourced from.

LessDmesg 7y ago

In the long run, economical and industrial progress is still better for the environment. The key is new technologies. There is no pollution that cannot be cleaned up, the question is only in the cost, and that depends directly on the tech. Ultimately, any piece of trash or a dangerous chemical can be separated into atoms (e.g. with a plasma burner) that can be separated into pure chemical elements that then can be used to create products or chemically neutralized. The problem is only in the cost of energy, and that's, again, a question of tech. With fusion reactors, we'll have a way to solve world's pollution problems easily. So yes, developed countries ARE moving towards a clean environment. The solution is to move faster, not try to slow down the progress in economy, industry and technology with greenie measures that achieve only temporary pollution slow-down while postponing the real future solutions.

heavenlyblue 7y ago

British still lament about that, don’t be mistaken. Not all of them, but many still do.