4 ms·

Can you fire someone for disparaging your company on Facebook?

13 points by trustfundbaby 16y ago

bartonfink 16y ago
Why do people insist on bringing the First Amendment into these discussions? Unless you work for the government, the First Amendment doesn't say anything about the relationship between your speech and your employer's reactions to that speech. If you say something I don't like, I can punch you square in the face and the First Amendment says NOTHING about it. I'll get brought up on assault charges, but free speech is simply a non-issue. Yes, you absolutely can fire someone for disparaging your company on Facebook. You can also deal with the NON-LEGAL fallout from doing so because I'm pretty sure that, if word gets around that you fire people for talking about not liking their job, your company's reputation is going to take a serious nosedive.
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  As I understand the article, this is not a free speech issue but a free association (e.g. union-forming) issue: if you can't (easily) discuss your working conditions, it becomes very hard to organize. E.g. "MyCo sucks" may still be prohibited in specific agreements, but "MyCo pays $10/hour and makes you work long hours" is perfectly fine. (Think ea_spouse.)
  - notahacker 16y ago
    I'd have thought the other big question is whether Facebook was considered to be quasi-private channel for employees to share concerns with each other or a broadcast medium.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      Clearly, the law has to catch up and start addressing social graph media directly as an intermediate but distinct form.
  - byrneseyeview 16y ago
    You can't fire someone for griping as long as the gripes are objective? That seems kind of ridiculous. It's clear that companies should prefer employees who criticize constructively (i.e. emailing the boss to say that people would get more done if they made more money but didn't have to work such long hours). What purpose would it serve to make it harder to select such people?
- araneae 16y ago
  Perhaps that's how it should be, but it's clear that that isn't actually how our legal system works. We have copious amounts of legislation detailing what and when are appropriate firing situations. Anything relating to biological sex, pregnancy, race, religion are all off limits. There are legal protections for people who strike/unionize. And like this guy mentions, there are now court cases that mean that as an employers, you might want to exercise caution in this area.
- tbrownaw 16y ago
  ...hm. What would happen if the bill of rights applied to the stronger side in any relationship with a massive power disparity, rather than just the federal and state governments?
Tyrannosaurs 16y ago
Interesting question. The right to free speech and the right to free speech without consequence would seem to me to be different things. If the first amendment allowed people to say what they want without consequence then there would be no such thing as libel or slander. The fact that they exist suggest that this obviously isn't the case. So there's going to be an element of whether what was said was broadly factually accurate and / or whether it was put forward in a vaguely constructive way. Obviously if it wasn't then it would potentially be libellous which would very clearly seem to be a disciplinary matter (though whether it's a sacking offence isn't clear). I'd be curious to know how the same lawyer would see a scenario where I continually publicly insulted my wife. Grounds for divorce (which is how I'd see it) or would that be impacting my first amendment rights?
- dwc 16y ago
  The 1st Amendment doesn't say anything about what people, companies or anyone else aside from Congress can or cannot do. Here's the complete First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. As a private citizen, there is no possible way that I can violate your first amendment rights.
darklajid 16y ago
What am I missing? Why is "on Facebook" part of the question? Is "Facebook" really adding something here? Is the answer different if I put in IRC, Quora, NNTP? Edit: Note that I know that the article uses this headline (so I'm not trying to blame the submitter). I just wonder if this is useful?
- absconditus 16y ago
  If they did not use "Facebook" in the title no one would read this incredibly ignorant article.
sophacles 16y ago
Dear employers everywhere, I don't know why you all seem to have forgotten you time as a worker, but I am certain you complained to your friends about your job back then. Further, I am certain you thought the management was idiots. Those of you who are middle management probably still do these things. Please, tell me why you think this same stuff doesn't apply to your employees? Do you think you know best, and everyone else is wrong? (Odds are against you by a wide margin on that one). Do you think you are the best and they are just ungrateful -- that you remember bitching and have now implemented the perfect system? (once again, the odds suggest this thinking is wrong) Aside from your perception, lets take it for granted for a few moments that people will always bitch about their employer, their clients, their co-workers, whatever. This is a natural result of being forced into a lot of "together time". It comes from various stresses in the quest for better hierarchy position. It comes from the conflict of viewpoints when working towards a common goal. People bitch because they let out the stuff they have kept in at work -- it is simply venting. People who hear venting know it too, they listen but don't give it too much weight, because venting is just what we do to relieve types of stress. Historically venting has occurred to family and friends at barbeques, coffee shops, church, the local bar, and other such gathering places. These things are just part of the fabric of the social structure we have right now. Lately the Internet has become part of the hangout/socialize scene. It is essentially the internet's neighborhood bar, where venting happens. People still know it is venting. But for some reason, you as an employer don't want to allow venting. I get that you have fears of someone deciding not to buy your widgets based on a employee letting off some steam. I will tell you that in my whole life, I have only rarely seen someone lose business as the result of a venting employee. It is something that people don't include into the equation very often. It usually takes far more vindictive actions than mere complaint and trash-talking to have business suffer -- usually a smear campaign that has actually been organized and premeditated. In fact I strongly suspect that your concern is actually rooted in a fear that people will think poorly of you personally rather than some vague widget sales notion. Perhaps your ego is taking a blow you don't like? I would propose that facebook offers an opportunity for you, one that is new to our era: you can find out what your employees are saying! You don't have to send spies to the bar or put moles in the workforce anymore, you can just go to Facebook and twitter to read up on yourself. Further, instead of getting the second-hand report, almost certainly skewed to make the reporter look good, you can just see the complaint. If you can get past your hurt feelings (and I submit that a good manager should be able to do this), you now have an opportunity: You can actually address those concerns! You can start making changes based on what people think is bad, restrictive, or otherwise hindering their work. This will make you a good employer in the eyes of your employees. It earns you loyalty and higher productivity. What it won't do, is make the employees stop bitching. This is just how it goes. Regards, Someone who wants you to stop sucking
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

13 points by trustfundbaby 16y ago

Why do people insist on bringing the First Amendment into these discussions? Unless you work for the government, the First Amendment doesn't say anything about the relationship between your speech and your employer's reactions to that speech. If you say something I don't like, I can punch you square in the face and the First Amendment says NOTHING about it. I'll get brought up on assault charges, but free speech is simply a non-issue. Yes, you absolutely can fire someone for disparaging your company on Facebook. You can also deal with the NON-LEGAL fallout from doing so because I'm pretty sure that, if word gets around that you fire people for talking about not liking their job, your company's reputation is going to take a serious nosedive.

JoachimSchipper 16y ago
As I understand the article, this is not a free speech issue but a free association (e.g. union-forming) issue: if you can't (easily) discuss your working conditions, it becomes very hard to organize. E.g. "MyCo sucks" may still be prohibited in specific agreements, but "MyCo pays $10/hour and makes you work long hours" is perfectly fine. (Think ea_spouse.)
- notahacker 16y ago
  I'd have thought the other big question is whether Facebook was considered to be quasi-private channel for employees to share concerns with each other or a broadcast medium.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    Clearly, the law has to catch up and start addressing social graph media directly as an intermediate but distinct form.
- byrneseyeview 16y ago
  You can't fire someone for griping as long as the gripes are objective? That seems kind of ridiculous. It's clear that companies should prefer employees who criticize constructively (i.e. emailing the boss to say that people would get more done if they made more money but didn't have to work such long hours). What purpose would it serve to make it harder to select such people?
araneae 16y ago
Perhaps that's how it should be, but it's clear that that isn't actually how our legal system works. We have copious amounts of legislation detailing what and when are appropriate firing situations. Anything relating to biological sex, pregnancy, race, religion are all off limits. There are legal protections for people who strike/unionize. And like this guy mentions, there are now court cases that mean that as an employers, you might want to exercise caution in this area.
tbrownaw 16y ago
...hm. What would happen if the bill of rights applied to the stronger side in any relationship with a massive power disparity, rather than just the federal and state governments?

Tyrannosaurs 16y ago

Interesting question. The right to free speech and the right to free speech without consequence would seem to me to be different things. If the first amendment allowed people to say what they want without consequence then there would be no such thing as libel or slander. The fact that they exist suggest that this obviously isn't the case. So there's going to be an element of whether what was said was broadly factually accurate and / or whether it was put forward in a vaguely constructive way. Obviously if it wasn't then it would potentially be libellous which would very clearly seem to be a disciplinary matter (though whether it's a sacking offence isn't clear). I'd be curious to know how the same lawyer would see a scenario where I continually publicly insulted my wife. Grounds for divorce (which is how I'd see it) or would that be impacting my first amendment rights?

dwc 16y ago
The 1st Amendment doesn't say anything about what people, companies or anyone else aside from Congress can or cannot do. Here's the complete First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. As a private citizen, there is no possible way that I can violate your first amendment rights.

darklajid 16y ago

What am I missing? Why is "on Facebook" part of the question? Is "Facebook" really adding something here? Is the answer different if I put in IRC, Quora, NNTP? Edit: Note that I know that the article uses this headline (so I'm not trying to blame the submitter). I just wonder if this is useful?

absconditus 16y ago
If they did not use "Facebook" in the title no one would read this incredibly ignorant article.

sophacles 16y ago

Dear employers everywhere, I don't know why you all seem to have forgotten you time as a worker, but I am certain you complained to your friends about your job back then. Further, I am certain you thought the management was idiots. Those of you who are middle management probably still do these things. Please, tell me why you think this same stuff doesn't apply to your employees? Do you think you know best, and everyone else is wrong? (Odds are against you by a wide margin on that one). Do you think you are the best and they are just ungrateful -- that you remember bitching and have now implemented the perfect system? (once again, the odds suggest this thinking is wrong) Aside from your perception, lets take it for granted for a few moments that people will always bitch about their employer, their clients, their co-workers, whatever. This is a natural result of being forced into a lot of "together time". It comes from various stresses in the quest for better hierarchy position. It comes from the conflict of viewpoints when working towards a common goal. People bitch because they let out the stuff they have kept in at work -- it is simply venting. People who hear venting know it too, they listen but don't give it too much weight, because venting is just what we do to relieve types of stress. Historically venting has occurred to family and friends at barbeques, coffee shops, church, the local bar, and other such gathering places. These things are just part of the fabric of the social structure we have right now. Lately the Internet has become part of the hangout/socialize scene. It is essentially the internet's neighborhood bar, where venting happens. People still know it is venting. But for some reason, you as an employer don't want to allow venting. I get that you have fears of someone deciding not to buy your widgets based on a employee letting off some steam. I will tell you that in my whole life, I have only rarely seen someone lose business as the result of a venting employee. It is something that people don't include into the equation very often. It usually takes far more vindictive actions than mere complaint and trash-talking to have business suffer -- usually a smear campaign that has actually been organized and premeditated. In fact I strongly suspect that your concern is actually rooted in a fear that people will think poorly of you personally rather than some vague widget sales notion. Perhaps your ego is taking a blow you don't like? I would propose that facebook offers an opportunity for you, one that is new to our era: you can find out what your employees are saying! You don't have to send spies to the bar or put moles in the workforce anymore, you can just go to Facebook and twitter to read up on yourself. Further, instead of getting the second-hand report, almost certainly skewed to make the reporter look good, you can just see the complaint. If you can get past your hurt feelings (and I submit that a good manager should be able to do this), you now have an opportunity: You can actually address those concerns! You can start making changes based on what people think is bad, restrictive, or otherwise hindering their work. This will make you a good employer in the eyes of your employees. It earns you loyalty and higher productivity. What it won't do, is make the employees stop bitching. This is just how it goes. Regards, Someone who wants you to stop sucking

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]