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Here's another victory: caused 2 trillion in damages to the enemy and thoroughly demoralized them. Primitive stone age goat herders vs the "world's most powerf

Here's another victory: caused 2 trillion in damages to the enemy and thoroughly demoralized them. Primitive stone age goat herders vs the "world's most powerful" military. Who will win?

ALittleLight 7y ago
This is as poor a "victory" as the others suggested in this thread. "We won because you spent so much money on bombs and missiles exploding on us, and soldiers occupying us" is a line I'd expect from Zap Brannigan and not anyone residing in reality. They didn't inflict anywhere near that dollar amount in damages, instead it was paid to American soldiers and contractors. The simple fact is that the US occupied their country for years. Bombed and killed with complete impunity, and then decided to withdrawal. It's absurd to call that a victory for the Taliban or Afghanistan. Their claim to victory is that they aren't entirely dead at the time we wanted to withdraw and the reason for that is that we knew it would be immoral to use the force required to completely kill them, not any strategy or cunning from them. It's bad rhetorically and morally to pretend like this is an American loss because that implicitly says that in order to "win" we'd need to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely. We shouldn't have been there anywhere near as long as we were, we shouldn't have done anywhere near as much as we did, and it's great news that we're withdrawing. Calling it a loss, or a Taliban victory, isn't just immoral because it implicitly argues for perpetuation of the war, it's also completely delusional.
- droithomme 7y ago
  You believe the US won? > we wanted to withdraw and the reason for that is that we knew it would be immoral to use the force required to completely kill them We won because we didn't commit total genocide, only partial genocide? Due to our very high sense of morality and goodness?
  - ALittleLight 7y ago
    That's not what I said, but I certainly don't think Afghanistan or the Taliban won. The war had no clear objectives. It just continued until people decided to stop it and stopping it is a good thing. Regarding your question about why we didn't commit genocide, yes, it's because we realize that would be immoral and the American people wouldn't support it.
    - droithomme 7y ago
      > The war had no clear objectives. True for the US side, and thus was unwinnable. Not true for the Afghan side. Their goal was to expel the invaders. Their goal accomplished, the only possible conclusion is they won the war.
      - ALittleLight 7y ago
        Not at all. It was our choice to withdraw and we did. That's not winning the war, that's our interests aligning. Again, Afghanistan didn't force the US to withdraw - they survived because we chose to let them. We decided to withdraw not because of fierce Afghanistan resistance, more military personal committed suicide than were killed by enemy action, but instead because we elected a politician who thought the war was a waste of time. This is not a time to lament with absurd claims like "Afghanistan won the war". Instead, we should be happy that a needless war is coming to an end.
        droithomme 7y ago
        "There is no doubt we have won the war. This is why they are signing a peace treaty." - Chief Taliban negotiator Abbas Stanikzai Well, they disagree with you.
        ALittleLight 7y ago
        They disagree with simple reality. As I laid out before, they won no significant battles, killed a relatively small amount of our people (relative to the number of theirs we killed, but also to something like the regular suicide rate). The damage they did, as you alluded to earlier, was almost entirely in the form of making us detonate expensive ordinance on them and pay people to occupy their country for decades. At every moment it was US decision makers deciding what would happen, from deciding that the invasion would start, that the occupation would continue, until the US decided the occupation would cease. The Taliban may say whatever they like, but that doesn't make it so. It's simply wrong to claim they won or the US lost. It is good that our interests have aligned and the war will stop.

Here's another victory: caused 2 trillion in damages to the enemy and thoroughly demoralized them. Primitive stone age goat herders vs the "world's most powerful" military. Who will win?

ALittleLight 7y ago

This is as poor a "victory" as the others suggested in this thread. "We won because you spent so much money on bombs and missiles exploding on us, and soldiers occupying us" is a line I'd expect from Zap Brannigan and not anyone residing in reality. They didn't inflict anywhere near that dollar amount in damages, instead it was paid to American soldiers and contractors. The simple fact is that the US occupied their country for years. Bombed and killed with complete impunity, and then decided to withdrawal. It's absurd to call that a victory for the Taliban or Afghanistan. Their claim to victory is that they aren't entirely dead at the time we wanted to withdraw and the reason for that is that we knew it would be immoral to use the force required to completely kill them, not any strategy or cunning from them. It's bad rhetorically and morally to pretend like this is an American loss because that implicitly says that in order to "win" we'd need to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely. We shouldn't have been there anywhere near as long as we were, we shouldn't have done anywhere near as much as we did, and it's great news that we're withdrawing. Calling it a loss, or a Taliban victory, isn't just immoral because it implicitly argues for perpetuation of the war, it's also completely delusional.

droithomme 7y ago
You believe the US won? > we wanted to withdraw and the reason for that is that we knew it would be immoral to use the force required to completely kill them We won because we didn't commit total genocide, only partial genocide? Due to our very high sense of morality and goodness?
- ALittleLight 7y ago
  That's not what I said, but I certainly don't think Afghanistan or the Taliban won. The war had no clear objectives. It just continued until people decided to stop it and stopping it is a good thing. Regarding your question about why we didn't commit genocide, yes, it's because we realize that would be immoral and the American people wouldn't support it.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    > The war had no clear objectives. True for the US side, and thus was unwinnable. Not true for the Afghan side. Their goal was to expel the invaders. Their goal accomplished, the only possible conclusion is they won the war.
    - ALittleLight 7y ago
      Not at all. It was our choice to withdraw and we did. That's not winning the war, that's our interests aligning. Again, Afghanistan didn't force the US to withdraw - they survived because we chose to let them. We decided to withdraw not because of fierce Afghanistan resistance, more military personal committed suicide than were killed by enemy action, but instead because we elected a politician who thought the war was a waste of time. This is not a time to lament with absurd claims like "Afghanistan won the war". Instead, we should be happy that a needless war is coming to an end.
      - droithomme 7y ago
        "There is no doubt we have won the war. This is why they are signing a peace treaty." - Chief Taliban negotiator Abbas Stanikzai Well, they disagree with you.
        ALittleLight 7y ago
        They disagree with simple reality. As I laid out before, they won no significant battles, killed a relatively small amount of our people (relative to the number of theirs we killed, but also to something like the regular suicide rate). The damage they did, as you alluded to earlier, was almost entirely in the form of making us detonate expensive ordinance on them and pay people to occupy their country for decades. At every moment it was US decision makers deciding what would happen, from deciding that the invasion would start, that the occupation would continue, until the US decided the occupation would cease. The Taliban may say whatever they like, but that doesn't make it so. It's simply wrong to claim they won or the US lost. It is good that our interests have aligned and the war will stop.