4 ms·

Reading this reminds me of situations for Anti-vax, religion vs science, red vs blue, flat earthers vs.... the rest of us? Whatever their "idea" is, is infalli

Reading this reminds me of situations for Anti-vax, religion vs science, red vs blue, flat earthers vs.... the rest of us? Whatever their "idea" is, is infallible. Minds cannot be changed with logic or debate when clearly wrong/false. A belief is unbreakable if the person holding it wishes it to be so. Discussing such topics over the internet will never lead to yielding any ground. Perhaps at the core of it is the fear of being rejected or wrong. Or that their world as they know it is crumbling and keeping it together is of the highest requirement + cost. I keep hope for these discussions in that people can change. As cheesy as it is to say, I've only seen people really change when it's with love. That we reach out the other side and simply love the person first. Daryl Davis is my hero on this[0]. Unrealistic in a forum about cryptographic schemes, but it hurts for me to read the circles the author plays himself into. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

teddyh 7y ago
People can only change when they themselves want to change. To make them want to change, you have to find a reason for them to want to have already changed. If you find a good enough reason, they will then slowly convince themselves that the change is good.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  That psychological tricks like this are necessary to make people see that 1+1=2 makes me feel hopeless that humanity can ever reach the level of Star Trek without some kind of genetic engineering or letting AI take over. The vast majority of people are like this, incapable of reasoning through anything, only defending the views they grew up with or that they ascribe to their "tribe" by any means possible, never taking a Planck unit of time to self-reflect. There's some respite on select internet corners but even those have their pockets of crazies. I recently had to regrettably leave a fandom Discord server because a sizable portion of the populace including the admin devolved into screeching banshees with no capacity for rational thought at some /slightly different/ view than they preferred being posted in their politics channel, and I could no longer justify expending any energy trying to engage in a reasonable fashion with these people or supporting a server with such a rotten administration I'd lost all respect for. I wonder if those of us who can consider ideas without throwing ourselves on the floor in a tantrum over the fact someone disagreed with us should just move to another planet then come back and conquer Earth in the five years it would take us to develop the capacity to do so without such people in our way.
  - teddyh 7y ago
    You have, I think, accurately identified the problem which religions try to solve. Also, please don’t think yourself above, as you say, “The vast majority of people”. You yourself are like this too (and me). It’s just that you have different things which you think are important. It’s only when we aren’t attached to any particular view that any of us can reason with any semblance of logic. Which is why, I guess, that some religions urge detachment.
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      Is there evidence many religions "try" to do anything rather than simply being amalgamations of stories? I heard once some developed more as a means of control by kings but I don't have any source. The only religion I know of that I'd say really gives a good counter to the problem in question is Buddhism. And frankly I would consider anyone able to carry out these virtues to be "above" a lot of people in a certain way.
      - teddyh 7y ago
        Nobody can read minds, and certainly not the one of an entire religion, and by its very nature this is something which could never be spoken about publicly by its representatives. So we have only the actions of religions to go on. If we discount all the actions which can readily be explained as the kind of random madness stemming from any cult-like organization and/or culture, I get the impression that many religions actually do try to reign in the population at large and keep them in reasonable behavioral patterns. But no, no evidence, only my impression.
  - userbinator 7y ago
    without some kind of genetic engineering That's basically eugenics, which is largely considered a negative today.
mkhpalm 7y ago
Somewhat related rant: Has anybody ever really debated a "flat earther" let alone found one? As-in found somebody who actually believed it and wasn't just screwing with you to get a reaction? I keep hearing about these people who believe the earth is flat but I've yet to ever come across anybody who actually believes that.
- sk0g 7y ago
  Well in my childhood I realised the religion my father was involved in, there was a common belief the moon was made of cheese, and that there were 'scientific evidence' for this in the scriptures. This also nicely corroborated the conspiracy theories that were commonly believed in, like NASA landing on the moon. Make of that what you will!
- scallywag_ 7y ago
  My friend met the guy that organized this conference .. she said it was a real treat. http://fe2018.com/canada/ http://fe2018.com/canada/
  - seemslegit 7y ago
    This doesn't prove he actually believes in it, even the attendees could be said to have only attended for the spectacle.
- seemslegit 7y ago
  This. The idea of actual flat-earth believers should be met with at least the same degree of scepticism as they supposedly demand of round-earth believers. Mind that merely having someone claim to be a flat-earther or arguing in favor of flat earth does not distinguish between them actually believing it and engaging in some sort of Socratic rhetoric (so as not to say trolling)
- gdavisson 7y ago
  Here's a video of three flat-Earthers discussing (arguing) about it with three round-Earthers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yvvq-9ytE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yvvq-9ytE. They appear genuine, and remind me quite a bit of the anti-evolutionists I sometimes argue with (and who are definitely genuine). And then there's "Mad" Mike Hughes, who just managed to kill himself in a rocket he was hoping to fly high enough to see that the Earth wasn't curved... or something. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51602655 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51602655

teddyh 7y ago

People can only change when they themselves want to change. To make them want to change, you have to find a reason for them to want to have already changed. If you find a good enough reason, they will then slowly convince themselves that the change is good.

jimmaswell 7y ago
That psychological tricks like this are necessary to make people see that 1+1=2 makes me feel hopeless that humanity can ever reach the level of Star Trek without some kind of genetic engineering or letting AI take over. The vast majority of people are like this, incapable of reasoning through anything, only defending the views they grew up with or that they ascribe to their "tribe" by any means possible, never taking a Planck unit of time to self-reflect. There's some respite on select internet corners but even those have their pockets of crazies. I recently had to regrettably leave a fandom Discord server because a sizable portion of the populace including the admin devolved into screeching banshees with no capacity for rational thought at some /slightly different/ view than they preferred being posted in their politics channel, and I could no longer justify expending any energy trying to engage in a reasonable fashion with these people or supporting a server with such a rotten administration I'd lost all respect for. I wonder if those of us who can consider ideas without throwing ourselves on the floor in a tantrum over the fact someone disagreed with us should just move to another planet then come back and conquer Earth in the five years it would take us to develop the capacity to do so without such people in our way.
- teddyh 7y ago
  You have, I think, accurately identified the problem which religions try to solve. Also, please don’t think yourself above, as you say, “The vast majority of people”. You yourself are like this too (and me). It’s just that you have different things which you think are important. It’s only when we aren’t attached to any particular view that any of us can reason with any semblance of logic. Which is why, I guess, that some religions urge detachment.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    Is there evidence many religions "try" to do anything rather than simply being amalgamations of stories? I heard once some developed more as a means of control by kings but I don't have any source. The only religion I know of that I'd say really gives a good counter to the problem in question is Buddhism. And frankly I would consider anyone able to carry out these virtues to be "above" a lot of people in a certain way.
    - teddyh 7y ago
      Nobody can read minds, and certainly not the one of an entire religion, and by its very nature this is something which could never be spoken about publicly by its representatives. So we have only the actions of religions to go on. If we discount all the actions which can readily be explained as the kind of random madness stemming from any cult-like organization and/or culture, I get the impression that many religions actually do try to reign in the population at large and keep them in reasonable behavioral patterns. But no, no evidence, only my impression.
- userbinator 7y ago
  without some kind of genetic engineering That's basically eugenics, which is largely considered a negative today.

mkhpalm 7y ago

Somewhat related rant: Has anybody ever really debated a "flat earther" let alone found one? As-in found somebody who actually believed it and wasn't just screwing with you to get a reaction? I keep hearing about these people who believe the earth is flat but I've yet to ever come across anybody who actually believes that.

sk0g 7y ago
Well in my childhood I realised the religion my father was involved in, there was a common belief the moon was made of cheese, and that there were 'scientific evidence' for this in the scriptures. This also nicely corroborated the conspiracy theories that were commonly believed in, like NASA landing on the moon. Make of that what you will!
scallywag_ 7y ago
My friend met the guy that organized this conference .. she said it was a real treat. http://fe2018.com/canada/ http://fe2018.com/canada/
- seemslegit 7y ago
  This doesn't prove he actually believes in it, even the attendees could be said to have only attended for the spectacle.
seemslegit 7y ago
This. The idea of actual flat-earth believers should be met with at least the same degree of scepticism as they supposedly demand of round-earth believers. Mind that merely having someone claim to be a flat-earther or arguing in favor of flat earth does not distinguish between them actually believing it and engaging in some sort of Socratic rhetoric (so as not to say trolling)
gdavisson 7y ago
Here's a video of three flat-Earthers discussing (arguing) about it with three round-Earthers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yvvq-9ytE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yvvq-9ytE. They appear genuine, and remind me quite a bit of the anti-evolutionists I sometimes argue with (and who are definitely genuine). And then there's "Mad" Mike Hughes, who just managed to kill himself in a rocket he was hoping to fly high enough to see that the Earth wasn't curved... or something. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51602655 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51602655