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Meh... In most cases, talking about "passion" in this context is just a roundabout way of saying "we want people to work harder for less compensation." Expectin
by mindcrime 7y ago
Meh... In most cases, talking about "passion" in this context is just a roundabout way of saying "we want people to work harder for less compensation." Expecting founders to have "passion" is fine, since they (presumably) own equity stakes that will make them wealthy if the company is successful. But unless you're giving your early hires a large stake in the company, I'd suggest dropping the "passion" verbiage and treat them like mercenaries - like every other employee. Your vision, your dream, your passion, etc. are yours... there's very little reason to expect other people to share that, given that they likely already have things that they are passionate about, visions they care about, etc.
Hire the guy (or gal), scale their compensation to match the amount of work they actually do and call it good. If you're worried about them leaving too soon if their side project takes off, you can always try some "golden handcuffs" in the form of some perk that disappears if they leave before X months. And who knows, maybe that would make them decline the offer. In which case, honestly, everybody probably wins in the end.
- rriepe 7y agoYeah, "passion" is a huge red flag word for me. In the same realm as "ninja" or "rockstar."
- bwb 7y agoWhat do you all call the feeling around enjoying the work you do because of the mission and/or technical challenge and/or team? Or, the feeling of wanting to do high quality work wherever you are? Generally, I've never worried about that being called passion.
- ygggvg 7y agoPassion and having a problem with 3 days is probably the red flag
- dmos62 7y agoPersonal dating ad: "person wanted for passionate relationship." What's wrong with this ad is that passion is a byproduct of chemistry, so you can't "bring" it to a work environment, but sometimes you+work+team click and it happens. You could have an inherent passion for a cause, but you would still be subject to chemistry.
- rriepe 7y agoI'd call it passion! But it's like mindcrime said, mostly a case of word inflation in this particular context. So for me it's not what word I'd use instead of "passionate," but what word they're using "passionate" instead of. The most likely candidates I'd put forth: Naive, positivist, perfectionist, agreeable, friendly, excitable. I think teams with too many "passionate" (in their use) people run into serious problems.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- jarofgreen 7y agoThere is a big difference between an employee feeling passionate about their work because of things like the team, etc and a boss telling an employee "YOU MUST BE PASSIONATE!"
- thih9 7y ago> feeling of wanting to do high quality work wherever you are? I guess that when you state that, you assume relevant compensation. But often companies put that in job description when they search for „people who want to do high quality work wherever they are”, literally. In worst cases they end up exploiting more naive or less experienced workers.
- bwb 7y agoTrue, but you don't know which type of company it is until you talk to them or do some research right? I wouldn't want to just assume that when so many good companies use that word as well.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago> I wouldn't want to just assume that when so many good companies use that word as well. Name three. I'm yet to see a single company expecting "passion" that would be doing something worthwhile, or even something one can actually be passionate about.
- bwb 7y agoIt is a bit relative to the person I would imagine. Some people might be passionate about working at Canva, some people might be passionate about working at Instagram, etc... Depends a bit on what you enjoy doing and how you want to fill your day I guess.
- harel 7y agoMy passion is to my family, my craft, and to my own personal projects and ventures. If you hire me for money you'll get my talent, my time, my undivided attention, my friendly demeanour, and you might mistake a display of excitement or passion here and there because a juicy problem was solved with elegance, to passion to your company but it's just the passion to my craft. Passion (and I agree - ninja and rockstar) should be removed from the hiring lexicon.
- 1337biz 7y agoI would go even further - passion is the promise to stuff an employee's life with emotional bullshit. Some people actually need this from work, in particular those who have very little interests outside work. That's why it works best for the young and restless.
- clarry 7y ago> Or, the feeling of wanting to do high quality work wherever you are? We have a word that literally translates as "professional pride." Now I'm not sure it has the right vibe in English, but it captures the idea that you do high quality work and you wouldn't do a sloppy job, even if the job sucks. For example, I would like such a plumber, because I know they will be careful not to make a mess, and they will clean up after them, and they are careful and will double check their work to make sure it's fully done and solid and not going to leak. I don't expect them to be passionate about working with clogged pipes full of literal shit. I'm OK with them not wanting to spend 16 hours a day doing plumbing; if they only do three days a week but perform a respectful job, that is perfectly fine. In fact I'd be a little concerned if they said they're passionate about plumbing.. > What do you all call the feeling around enjoying the work Enjoying the work. That's it. To me, passion is something much deeper and even intimate. If you devote your life to something and you'd do it even when it doesn't pay the bills, I could accept it as passion. Otherwise, it's just a job that you enjoy.
- rjzzleep 7y agoI always thought it was an American thing(the asking for passion part) and a culture gap between them and "us" foreigners/Europeans. But it sounds like it's not exclusive to foreigners working with Americans. The way I see it, I bring a lot of experience to the table as well as my passion to solve problems. But it's extremely hard to be passionate for the "vision" of the 20th company trying to revolutionize log processing(when the founders never even did their due diligence) for example. I get that the founders may have had some personal experience that led them to be passionate about a certain problem. But when they ask me to help them in a specific topic they lack experience in and then ask me to be passionate about working the next 2 years doing mundane work I personally think it's incredibly disrespectful towards me or anyone in my position. I used to try to explain why I thought like that, but nowadays I mostly agree with the other people here and treat it as a red flag WRT how complicated it will be to get work done around these kinds of founders.
- mcv 7y agoYou can call that passion, but you can't demand passion. Passion doesn't work that way. You can certainly foster this passion in your employees by giving them real buy-in, making their contributions matter, and having them benefit from the success of the project. I'm passionate about the project I currently work for, but it's probably the first professional project ever (in 20 years) where I feel this way. And I feel this way because I was involved right from the very early start, I've got tons of context, and saw this develop from the very first prototype that I wrote to its current state. I did the job interviews for most of the rest of the team. I may only be a freelancer working for a major bank, but man do I feel a lot of ownership for this project. I love this project, but I notice not all of my team mates do. You clearly can't force or demand this kind of passion. Certainly not up-front. I still work only 4 days a week, by the way.
- TACIXAT 7y agoI have a passion for the work I do part time. It is because of the technical challenges though. I fill the non work time with other technical challenges most of the time. I do not think passion and part time work are at odds at all.
- Cthulhu_ 7y agoPassion is good, but it should never be used to overwork or underpay people. Never shit on someone else for having a good work/life balance and accuse them of not being passionate or whatever. That's a toxic work culture and honestly, given how much money is going around in software development, it shouldn't be necessary. Pay people if you need them to work overtime. In hard cash, not vague promises. And if you've burned through your VC money already, don't try and push through on debts; cut your losses, give your employees plenty of heads-up, and pay them before your money runs out. I mean if you don't want to hire them part-time, someone else will.
- Chris2048 7y agoThat is passion, the issue is when the reason companies care about it is b/c they want to exploit it i.e. pay people less. So, passion is a a good thing, assuming it doesn't (negatively) interfere with compensation. If you want passion, pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it, you don't want passion - you want leverage.
- jklein11 7y agoI would call that professionalism
- geofft 7y ago> What do you all call the feeling around enjoying the work you do because of the mission and/or technical challenge and/or team? Or, the feeling of wanting to do high quality work wherever you are? As someone who has this - I have a dedication to solving what I think the business's needs are over what my management thinks the business's needs are. It's sometimes actually quite useful and sometimes not.
- kiawe_fire 7y agoThis is something key that I feel most employers looking for “passion” don’t get. I have a lot of passion for the small startup business I’m working for... I have a vision for their product, the ability to execute that vision, and a strong sense of ownership and desire to put out a great, premium product. Problem is, my vision and the owner’s vision are not the same. He likes quick fixes and focusing on the daily grind, I want to work out big, longer term things. For as much as the owner wants people to share his passion in what he’s building, I know for certain he wants that passion to be “blindly working for whatever he says is important at the moment and not being too passionate beyond that”. That kind of passion, IMO, is unrealistic and unfair, but I suspect it’s what most employers really want.
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago> "What do you all call the feeling around enjoying the work you do because of the mission and/or technical challenge and/or team?" That's passion. > "Or, the feeling of wanting to do high quality work wherever you are?" That's professionalism, although one might also describe it as being passionate about behaving professionally.
- Lordarminius 7y agoJust to add a point to the parent comment: passion is a spark you fuel with CASH (and other incentives) to burn brightly, if at all. Also, if your guy can get the job done in 3 days whats the issue ? I'd interpret that to mean you hired a highly competent engineer.
- mcv 7y ago> "If you're worried about them leaving too soon if their side project takes off, you can always try some "golden handcuffs" in the form of some perk that disappears if they leave before X months." Seems to me the obvious choice here would be to give him equity that vests over time. Have it scale with how much he works. That rewards his "passion", if he has it or develops it over the course of the project, and it might tempt him to commit more. Vesting over time discourages him from leaving early.
- collyw 7y agoI see both sides. Your "one year ten times" developer clearly shows no passion. But after 20 years in the industry (learing more than two years worth) I haven't got a lot of passion left in me.
- dangus 7y ago> Hire the guy (or gal) Ugh, they’re called people. “Hire the person” or “hire them” works fine. The way you’re saying this makes it sound like you expect that the candidate will most likely be male, and that a girl (never mind someone who is gender fluid or genderqueer: doesn’t exist in your sentence) is a secondary choice, relegated to a secondary option in parenthesis. I can understand if you think that I’m reading too far into this, but our use of language is part of this problem. It’s no better to assume a teacher or nurse is a “she.”
- CrazyStat 7y agoThe original post specifies guy, so the parent commentor used guy. They added gal in an attempt to be more inclusive, presumably. I sympathize with your position but you come across as looking for things to be offended about when you criticize reasonable language choice.
- mindcrime 7y agoFair enough. I'd edit my post, but it's too late now.
- loco5niner 7y agoWhen you complain about innocuous things like this, you weaken your argument. Guy or gal is fine.