5 ms·

I really feel like it's worth having this discussion: the black bar for Freeman Dyson, but not for Katherine Johnson who died earlier this week. At the time I

by adpirz 7y ago

I really feel like it's worth having this discussion: the black bar for Freeman Dyson, but not for Katherine Johnson who died earlier this week. At the time I thought it was likely because she wasn't _directly_ involved in computing and tried to write it off, but Freeman seems to be as related to the page as her. I bring it up because it really does speak to how a community decides who they want to include or not. Unless I've missed some specific guidelines, it sends unwelcoming signals to me.

krapp 7y ago
The community doesn't decide who gets the black bar or not, and there are no published guidelines. AFAIK it's entirely the personal preference of the admins, or possibly just dang. Maybe Katherine Johnson just wasn't considered notable enough, or maybe the story just wasn't noticed. I wouldn't necessarily attribute it to sexism, though - there have been male obits that haven't gotten the black bar either.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  The story was noticed, it was one of the top stories of the day and had similar comments https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F09rtt53,%2Fm%2F030xd https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F09r... I know, I know, the mostly white people that make up classic HN don't really care about someone who's important to black people. Sure there was a Best Picture nominated movie in large part about her story along with some of the people she worked with but you know not the HN's cup of tea not being about someone who lectured at Stanford or something. But alas... I know I know, classic HN is going to take great exception to me insinuating they are anything less than the most racially aware people with "a ton of black friends" and “they don’t see color” (maybe even one of the few other black guys here will show up and represent them) and this comment will be buried.
the5dysfunction 7y ago
I imagine the distinction is that one was a human calculator, and the other was a unique and brilliant mind. I don't see how their gender and/or race has anything to do with it. My guess is if you're looking for sexism and 'unwelcoming signals' you're going to find them everywhere.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  What a fucking joke, reducing Katherine Johnson to "a human calculator" while the climate change sympathizer is "a unique and brilliant mind". If Katherine Johnson isn't a "a unique and brilliant mind", there was never such a thing. I don't know if your problem is sexism or racism or a healthy dose of both but it's infuriating to see. - The idea that someone can say this and be well supported but calling them out is taboo, is the kind of stuff that makes me ashamed to be a black person in tech. Why should I work alongside people who think we're in a post-racial era and don't care that minorities are underrepresented because to them even implying that there's value in having people from different walks of life is valuable enough to actually actively try to fix the situation is taboo
fsckboy 7y ago
just as one factoid to add, in addition to Freeman Dyson being extremely notable, his daughter, Esther, has been a well-known tech industry persona for a long time, and is probably acquainted with most everybody who is anybody out there, so... personal connection?
DoreenMichele 7y ago
I've heard of a Dyson Sphere. I had to look up who Katherine Johnson was. I'm a woman and I'm painfully aware that women and other underrepresented groups face uphill battles to have a career at all and these battles are worthy of note in their own right. I don't know what the solution is. I think about such things a great deal and wonder a lot what I would need to do to achieve recognition for my work and not for "a woman who did that kind of work." I'm medically handicapped. I don't want to be remembered either as "a handicapped person who achieved something." We don't remember Stephen Hawking that way. His work stood on its own for its merit. It didn't make news because he was wheelchair bound and did it. It would have made news even if he had been able bodied. Certainly, a lot of underrepresented groups simply aren't getting the recognition they deserve. But I think about this problem space quite a lot and my first-hand experience has been that I tend to get attention for all the wrong reasons routed in my gender. My feeling is this is a factor in Theranos becoming such a debacle. I feel like men mostly either squee at women or dismiss them simply because they are women and women mostly don't get the kind critical engagement that helps one pursue excellence. I don't know what criteria gets used to determine who deserves the black bar. I mostly don't think too much about that. But I feel like this is about the worst possible way to pursue the subject. Obits that posted get treated like a virtual wake. Discussion isn't off limits, but coming here to complain about this person getting recognition when someone else didn't seems like a pretty bad way to try to explore why the black bar is given and what we, as a society, can do to try to continue to reduce social injustice.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  What on earth is this screed about. Besides the fact Kathrine Johnson's achievements start NASA stand up outside of her race and gender (literally being trusted over computers and programs that sent people into space) Your analogy with Steven Hawkins is so incredibly stupid and insulting. Her race isn’t relevant just because blacks are underrepresented. It’s because SHE LIVED IN THE RACIALLY SEGREGATED SOUTH. How foolish is it to act like her race is some aside like a fucking wheelchair when she lived in an era where her drinking at a certain water fountain was illegal because of her skin color. And I mean, you don’t know about a lady who won a Presidential medal of freedom, has a building named after her by NASA, brought people back home from space safely, who was a subject of one of the most successful films of 2016 (a movie that Google shows as having almost 100x more reach than useless fiction like a Dyson Sphere btw) so what? Kudos to the grandparent comment for doing what I wanted to do but wasn’t bold enough to. Sure it doesn’t satisfy your delicate sensibilities that this is a post about someone dying, but damnit if I have thought the same thing, and damnit if this isn’t just as good a place as any. There is no place where someone wouldn’t have tried to brush off their comment with some foolishness about “this is not the place”. Because it’s never the right place or time when someone talks about something uncomfortable to you people.

by adpirz 7y ago

krapp 7y ago

The community doesn't decide who gets the black bar or not, and there are no published guidelines. AFAIK it's entirely the personal preference of the admins, or possibly just dang. Maybe Katherine Johnson just wasn't considered notable enough, or maybe the story just wasn't noticed. I wouldn't necessarily attribute it to sexism, though - there have been male obits that haven't gotten the black bar either.

BoorishBears 7y ago
The story was noticed, it was one of the top stories of the day and had similar comments https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F09rtt53,%2Fm%2F030xd https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F09r... I know, I know, the mostly white people that make up classic HN don't really care about someone who's important to black people. Sure there was a Best Picture nominated movie in large part about her story along with some of the people she worked with but you know not the HN's cup of tea not being about someone who lectured at Stanford or something. But alas... I know I know, classic HN is going to take great exception to me insinuating they are anything less than the most racially aware people with "a ton of black friends" and “they don’t see color” (maybe even one of the few other black guys here will show up and represent them) and this comment will be buried.

the5dysfunction 7y ago

I imagine the distinction is that one was a human calculator, and the other was a unique and brilliant mind. I don't see how their gender and/or race has anything to do with it. My guess is if you're looking for sexism and 'unwelcoming signals' you're going to find them everywhere.

BoorishBears 7y ago
What a fucking joke, reducing Katherine Johnson to "a human calculator" while the climate change sympathizer is "a unique and brilliant mind". If Katherine Johnson isn't a "a unique and brilliant mind", there was never such a thing. I don't know if your problem is sexism or racism or a healthy dose of both but it's infuriating to see. - The idea that someone can say this and be well supported but calling them out is taboo, is the kind of stuff that makes me ashamed to be a black person in tech. Why should I work alongside people who think we're in a post-racial era and don't care that minorities are underrepresented because to them even implying that there's value in having people from different walks of life is valuable enough to actually actively try to fix the situation is taboo

fsckboy 7y ago

just as one factoid to add, in addition to Freeman Dyson being extremely notable, his daughter, Esther, has been a well-known tech industry persona for a long time, and is probably acquainted with most everybody who is anybody out there, so... personal connection?

DoreenMichele 7y ago

I've heard of a Dyson Sphere. I had to look up who Katherine Johnson was. I'm a woman and I'm painfully aware that women and other underrepresented groups face uphill battles to have a career at all and these battles are worthy of note in their own right. I don't know what the solution is. I think about such things a great deal and wonder a lot what I would need to do to achieve recognition for my work and not for "a woman who did that kind of work." I'm medically handicapped. I don't want to be remembered either as "a handicapped person who achieved something." We don't remember Stephen Hawking that way. His work stood on its own for its merit. It didn't make news because he was wheelchair bound and did it. It would have made news even if he had been able bodied. Certainly, a lot of underrepresented groups simply aren't getting the recognition they deserve. But I think about this problem space quite a lot and my first-hand experience has been that I tend to get attention for all the wrong reasons routed in my gender. My feeling is this is a factor in Theranos becoming such a debacle. I feel like men mostly either squee at women or dismiss them simply because they are women and women mostly don't get the kind critical engagement that helps one pursue excellence. I don't know what criteria gets used to determine who deserves the black bar. I mostly don't think too much about that. But I feel like this is about the worst possible way to pursue the subject. Obits that posted get treated like a virtual wake. Discussion isn't off limits, but coming here to complain about this person getting recognition when someone else didn't seems like a pretty bad way to try to explore why the black bar is given and what we, as a society, can do to try to continue to reduce social injustice.

BoorishBears 7y ago
What on earth is this screed about. Besides the fact Kathrine Johnson's achievements start NASA stand up outside of her race and gender (literally being trusted over computers and programs that sent people into space) Your analogy with Steven Hawkins is so incredibly stupid and insulting. Her race isn’t relevant just because blacks are underrepresented. It’s because SHE LIVED IN THE RACIALLY SEGREGATED SOUTH. How foolish is it to act like her race is some aside like a fucking wheelchair when she lived in an era where her drinking at a certain water fountain was illegal because of her skin color. And I mean, you don’t know about a lady who won a Presidential medal of freedom, has a building named after her by NASA, brought people back home from space safely, who was a subject of one of the most successful films of 2016 (a movie that Google shows as having almost 100x more reach than useless fiction like a Dyson Sphere btw) so what? Kudos to the grandparent comment for doing what I wanted to do but wasn’t bold enough to. Sure it doesn’t satisfy your delicate sensibilities that this is a post about someone dying, but damnit if I have thought the same thing, and damnit if this isn’t just as good a place as any. There is no place where someone wouldn’t have tried to brush off their comment with some foolishness about “this is not the place”. Because it’s never the right place or time when someone talks about something uncomfortable to you people.