11 ms·

I live in Graz and I'm hard of hearing. Hearing aids make locating where some kinds of sounds come from difficult, so I miss a lot of acoustic cues that pedestr

I live in Graz and I'm hard of hearing. Hearing aids make locating where some kinds of sounds come from difficult, so I miss a lot of acoustic cues that pedestrians use to navigate their way through busy places. I've been run down once by a bicyclist and once by a skateboarder while I was walking on mixed use pathways. The skateboarder took a harder fall than I did, still helped me up, and sincerely apologized. I fractured my wrist in my fall when the bicyclist hit me and not only did they not stop, they yelled at me as they cycled away. Anyway, I too would support limiting the use of cars as well as on street parking in city centres and other similar zones.

close04 7y ago
Bikes shouldn't share the lane with pedestrians any more than they should share it with cars. In an ideal world they would look more like Danish ones, with all 3 separated by at least a small kerb. This helps pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers alike. Cycling in Denmark was the best cycling experience I ever had relative to the way bike lanes are designed (definitely not related to the cyclists that were sometimes falling like bowling pins when the huge crowd was starting to move at a green light). Getting used to some bad compromise hardly makes it good.
- ghaff 7y ago
  There's (literally) one street in a nearby city that, during a redesign a few years back, basically embedded a bike lane in the sidewalk. It's sort of a hazard. It's moderately busy for both pedestrians and bikes and, given that this is an extremely atypical configuration, pedestrians are simply not used to looking out for bikes zipping down this bike lane (sometimes even in the direction that they're supposed to be traveling on a given side and maybe with lights on at night). I'm there often enough that I'm careful but I've still come closer to being hit a couple of times as a pedestrian than I'd like.
  - AndyMcConachie 7y ago
    The Rue de la Loi is Brussels is notorious for this. They removed a lane of traffic a few years ago and added a bike lane at the same level as the sidewalk. Incredibly dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4PMJ5RMPUx3HiPI67uQNcA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270...
    - ghaff 7y ago
      This is actually even worse than that. Because of trees, the bike lane sort of goes down the middle of the sidewalk. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.358207,-71.0988444,3a,75y,200.65h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sESiqHmdvCrydaWNMh6ykKw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DESiqHmdvCrydaWNMh6ykKw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D195.5635%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@42.358207,-71.0988444,3a,75y,20...
      - rootusrootus 7y ago
        In the street view, there's even a bicyclist avoiding it altogether and riding in traffic.
    - asdff 7y ago
      They tried to paint one like this along some of the main walks at USC. Absolutely no one realizes it's there, cyclist or pedestrian.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  I'd just like to point out that we've known that mixing classes of traffic in the same space is bad for safety since the industrial revolution brought heavy rolling objects to the workplace. This stuff is well known. It's a politics and resources problem.
  - close04 7y ago
    If you bother to build the cycling lane then differentiating it a bit more obviously from the sidewalk is not such a big expenditure. Loot at this [0] setup (just outside of Copenhagen). Simply having a few centimeters of difference in height between the 3 lanes (pedestrians, bikes, cars) makes them very obvious and a lot harder to accidentally cross them. It also allows treating the cycling lane as another traffic lane with its own road markings and everything. [1] It doesn't feel like the extra kerb is a matter of cost as much as of "sharing" the environment. So the expectation is "there won't be too many bikes so pedestrians can just use the entire sidewalk when needed". This just leads to more cyclists trying their luck on the street with the cars which are more predictable than pedestrians. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6450742,12.4589657,3a,75y,283.1h,82.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT57dbkpbD3t-7aYMNrRCxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6450742,12.4589657,3a,75y,28... [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.614447,12.475333,3a,75y,294.04h,63.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYD6oVmGiB8WmET6ku_lu2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.614447,12.475333,3a,75y,294....
    - dublinben 7y ago
      Do drivers actually respect cycling lanes like the first one? In the US we have much more separated lanes which are routinely disrespected by drivers.
      - Symbiote 7y ago
        Delivery drivers park half-in-half-out of these lanes in the city sometimes. Otherwise, they're respected. I don't think I've ever seen someone driving in one. It seems a strange question. Do American drivers not respect the sidewalk? It's the same construction. I think the police would come down very heavily on anyone they caught driving in the cycle lane without a very good reason. The only good reason I can think of would be to move slowly aside to allow an emergency vehicle to pass -- and the same reason would justify pulling onto the sidewalk -- although either action is still illegal.
- ehnto 7y ago
  Bikes can certainly share pedestrian areas, they just need to ride slower, the walkways need to be wide, and the walkways should be easy to enter and exit in the case you need to ride around groups of people (shallow curbs you ride up and down). Look at Osaka, you have almost free reign on a bicycle there. Bikes are slow, cars are slow, but it all flows. Bikes even join foot traffic in shopping precints. But when it's too busy people are no longer on their bikes anyway, because the whole place is walkable. It takes a level of empathy and cooperation I think doesn't exist in the bike versus car debate, because it has become an "us versus them" debate and everyone is trying to win not collaborate.
  - wool_gather 7y ago
    For some types of bike riding, sure. But not for commuting or general getting around. Then the whole point of using a bike is to go at a much higher speed than walking.
  - labawi 7y ago
    Cars can certainly share cycle paths, they just need to ride slower, the paths need to be wide, and they should be easy to enter and exit in the case you need to ride around groups of cyclists. Pedestrian areas, yes - people usually don't commute through there. Sidewalks vs. cycle paths vs. car lanes - not a good idea. When people propose path sharing among pedestrians and cyclists, they often mean cyclists slowing down to speeds (e.g. 10km/h, or even 5-7km/h), which they would find unacceptable for cars, even if multiplied x3 (try telling drivers to go 30km/h so they share with cyclists going 15-30 km/h).
    - emj 7y ago
      It is easy and cheap to let people bicycle there, this is one of the most important commuter paths in Stockholm: https://www.google.com/maps/@59.3169808,18.0719185,3a,75y,343.2h,64.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slgRIAKdBPNTpkXf8vjuYcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@59.3169808,18.0719185,3a,75y,34... It's not good, the priority just isn't there to make it better. Overall I think mixing pedestrians an cyclists works, as long as people respect one another, but as you say mixing in commuters really is a bad idea.
- u801e 7y ago
  > Bikes shouldn't share the lane with pedestrians any more than they should share it with cars. Bicycles are vehicles with wheels just like motorcycles and cars. Drivers are supposed to follow the same rules of the road regardless of what type of vehicle they use. That is, stay on the correct side of the road, signal intention to change lanes or turn. Make left turns while keeping to the left of same direction traffic and make right turns while keeping to the right of same direction traffic. Faster traffic passes/overtakes slower traffic on the side closer to the center of the road which allows for traffic moving at different speeds. In the other hand, none of these requirements apply to pedestrians, so they cannot mix with traffic other than at designated crossing points. These crossing points work for pedestrians moving at pedestrian like speeds (3 to 5 mph -- 5 to 8 km/h). Faster speeds leads to the problem where drivers have insufficient time to see the pedestrian and yield).
  - sporkland 7y ago
    As a cyclist this "bikes are cars" myth leads to a very unsafe experience for cyclists. I know it's what the current laws say, but I can't comprehend how folks don't see how false it is. A bike is much closer to a really big person running down a sidewalk than a car or motorcycle. You basically take the person add twenty pounds to them and 12 mph. Versus a car you take a person and add 2000lbs to them and 40+ mph. I'm not advocating for bikes on sidewalks, but it seems less ludicrous to me than bikes on streets with cars. I'm for the standard line of though that bikes and friends belong in a 3rd flow of traffic like the Dutch do it.
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
I also live in Graz now and as much as it loves to advertise itself as a bike friendly city, outside of the inner city center and student quarters biking here is very dangerous due to poor infrastructure cyclists have to share with pedestrians, cars or trams and cyclists not respecting any rules (crossing on red lights, never hand signaling a turn or a stop, etc.). Compared to the Netherlands or Denmark, biking culture and infrastructure in Austria is a national embarrassment.
- Quequau 7y ago
  You've reminded me that there's a five-way intersection next to Uni Graz. Some years ago they basically removed all traffic signals and most signs, basically ceding the whole area to priority for pedestrians. When I first came across it the apparent chaos was a little concerning but after walking through that place on more than one occasion I was surprised how well it worked. I've not actually been to that part of town in some time, so now I wonder if it's still like that. I'm not sure that would work in many, much less every intersection but it really made me stop and question what sort of unrecognised assumptions I had about traffic safety. This stuff is important and I think there's way to many rules and practices that are in place because of assumptions that got made back in the dawn of time... it's likely that they're not correct now but it's even possible that they were never really correct. We need evidence based policies and not so-called common wisdom.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    That intersection[1] works so well without signs by accident not by design, since it's in the most central and densest part of the city with lots of cafes that's crawling with students and cyclists coming from every direction so drivers have no choice but to drive slowly and carefully. They can't replicate this in other parts outside the city center where cars pick up speed. [1]https://maps.app.goo.gl/WeN2Q2MhVdA8Y1RK8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/WeN2Q2MhVdA8Y1RK8
  - flicken 7y ago
    Yes, the intersection is alive and well without traffic signals. That's my favorite intersection in Graz, the five-way intersection of Zinzendorfgasse, Halbärthgasse, Schubertstrasse, Leechgasse, and Beethovenstrasse. The Google Maps street view has a nice view of pedestrians, bikes, and cars sharing the intersection. Buses also use the intersection, but I couldn't find any in the Google Maps view. https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0761111,15.4503833,3a,75y,310.35h,78.5t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1sNQqWa8zA7uivnnKKuMYp5g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DNQqWa8zA7uivnnKKuMYp5g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D128.75166%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i38 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0761111,15.4503833,3a,75y,31... My second favorite intersection is on the left side of Erzherzog-Johann-Brücke, where pedestrians, bikes, trams, and cars intersect with only one traffic sign (northwards on Neutorgasse). https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0710439,15.4355343,3a,75y,207.92h,86.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWXXhPAmZK6wuW0tEuo6Yeg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0710439,15.4355343,3a,75y,20...

close04 7y ago

Bikes shouldn't share the lane with pedestrians any more than they should share it with cars. In an ideal world they would look more like Danish ones, with all 3 separated by at least a small kerb. This helps pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers alike. Cycling in Denmark was the best cycling experience I ever had relative to the way bike lanes are designed (definitely not related to the cyclists that were sometimes falling like bowling pins when the huge crowd was starting to move at a green light). Getting used to some bad compromise hardly makes it good.

ghaff 7y ago
There's (literally) one street in a nearby city that, during a redesign a few years back, basically embedded a bike lane in the sidewalk. It's sort of a hazard. It's moderately busy for both pedestrians and bikes and, given that this is an extremely atypical configuration, pedestrians are simply not used to looking out for bikes zipping down this bike lane (sometimes even in the direction that they're supposed to be traveling on a given side and maybe with lights on at night). I'm there often enough that I'm careful but I've still come closer to being hit a couple of times as a pedestrian than I'd like.
- AndyMcConachie 7y ago
  The Rue de la Loi is Brussels is notorious for this. They removed a lane of traffic a few years ago and added a bike lane at the same level as the sidewalk. Incredibly dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4PMJ5RMPUx3HiPI67uQNcA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270...
  - ghaff 7y ago
    This is actually even worse than that. Because of trees, the bike lane sort of goes down the middle of the sidewalk. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.358207,-71.0988444,3a,75y,200.65h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sESiqHmdvCrydaWNMh6ykKw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DESiqHmdvCrydaWNMh6ykKw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D195.5635%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@42.358207,-71.0988444,3a,75y,20...
    - rootusrootus 7y ago
      In the street view, there's even a bicyclist avoiding it altogether and riding in traffic.
  - asdff 7y ago
    They tried to paint one like this along some of the main walks at USC. Absolutely no one realizes it's there, cyclist or pedestrian.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
I'd just like to point out that we've known that mixing classes of traffic in the same space is bad for safety since the industrial revolution brought heavy rolling objects to the workplace. This stuff is well known. It's a politics and resources problem.
- close04 7y ago
  If you bother to build the cycling lane then differentiating it a bit more obviously from the sidewalk is not such a big expenditure. Loot at this [0] setup (just outside of Copenhagen). Simply having a few centimeters of difference in height between the 3 lanes (pedestrians, bikes, cars) makes them very obvious and a lot harder to accidentally cross them. It also allows treating the cycling lane as another traffic lane with its own road markings and everything. [1] It doesn't feel like the extra kerb is a matter of cost as much as of "sharing" the environment. So the expectation is "there won't be too many bikes so pedestrians can just use the entire sidewalk when needed". This just leads to more cyclists trying their luck on the street with the cars which are more predictable than pedestrians. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6450742,12.4589657,3a,75y,283.1h,82.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT57dbkpbD3t-7aYMNrRCxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6450742,12.4589657,3a,75y,28... [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.614447,12.475333,3a,75y,294.04h,63.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYD6oVmGiB8WmET6ku_lu2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.614447,12.475333,3a,75y,294....
  - dublinben 7y ago
    Do drivers actually respect cycling lanes like the first one? In the US we have much more separated lanes which are routinely disrespected by drivers.
    - Symbiote 7y ago
      Delivery drivers park half-in-half-out of these lanes in the city sometimes. Otherwise, they're respected. I don't think I've ever seen someone driving in one. It seems a strange question. Do American drivers not respect the sidewalk? It's the same construction. I think the police would come down very heavily on anyone they caught driving in the cycle lane without a very good reason. The only good reason I can think of would be to move slowly aside to allow an emergency vehicle to pass -- and the same reason would justify pulling onto the sidewalk -- although either action is still illegal.
ehnto 7y ago
Bikes can certainly share pedestrian areas, they just need to ride slower, the walkways need to be wide, and the walkways should be easy to enter and exit in the case you need to ride around groups of people (shallow curbs you ride up and down). Look at Osaka, you have almost free reign on a bicycle there. Bikes are slow, cars are slow, but it all flows. Bikes even join foot traffic in shopping precints. But when it's too busy people are no longer on their bikes anyway, because the whole place is walkable. It takes a level of empathy and cooperation I think doesn't exist in the bike versus car debate, because it has become an "us versus them" debate and everyone is trying to win not collaborate.
- wool_gather 7y ago
  For some types of bike riding, sure. But not for commuting or general getting around. Then the whole point of using a bike is to go at a much higher speed than walking.
- labawi 7y ago
  Cars can certainly share cycle paths, they just need to ride slower, the paths need to be wide, and they should be easy to enter and exit in the case you need to ride around groups of cyclists. Pedestrian areas, yes - people usually don't commute through there. Sidewalks vs. cycle paths vs. car lanes - not a good idea. When people propose path sharing among pedestrians and cyclists, they often mean cyclists slowing down to speeds (e.g. 10km/h, or even 5-7km/h), which they would find unacceptable for cars, even if multiplied x3 (try telling drivers to go 30km/h so they share with cyclists going 15-30 km/h).
  - emj 7y ago
    It is easy and cheap to let people bicycle there, this is one of the most important commuter paths in Stockholm: https://www.google.com/maps/@59.3169808,18.0719185,3a,75y,343.2h,64.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slgRIAKdBPNTpkXf8vjuYcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@59.3169808,18.0719185,3a,75y,34... It's not good, the priority just isn't there to make it better. Overall I think mixing pedestrians an cyclists works, as long as people respect one another, but as you say mixing in commuters really is a bad idea.
u801e 7y ago
> Bikes shouldn't share the lane with pedestrians any more than they should share it with cars. Bicycles are vehicles with wheels just like motorcycles and cars. Drivers are supposed to follow the same rules of the road regardless of what type of vehicle they use. That is, stay on the correct side of the road, signal intention to change lanes or turn. Make left turns while keeping to the left of same direction traffic and make right turns while keeping to the right of same direction traffic. Faster traffic passes/overtakes slower traffic on the side closer to the center of the road which allows for traffic moving at different speeds. In the other hand, none of these requirements apply to pedestrians, so they cannot mix with traffic other than at designated crossing points. These crossing points work for pedestrians moving at pedestrian like speeds (3 to 5 mph -- 5 to 8 km/h). Faster speeds leads to the problem where drivers have insufficient time to see the pedestrian and yield).
- sporkland 7y ago
  As a cyclist this "bikes are cars" myth leads to a very unsafe experience for cyclists. I know it's what the current laws say, but I can't comprehend how folks don't see how false it is. A bike is much closer to a really big person running down a sidewalk than a car or motorcycle. You basically take the person add twenty pounds to them and 12 mph. Versus a car you take a person and add 2000lbs to them and 40+ mph. I'm not advocating for bikes on sidewalks, but it seems less ludicrous to me than bikes on streets with cars. I'm for the standard line of though that bikes and friends belong in a 3rd flow of traffic like the Dutch do it.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

I also live in Graz now and as much as it loves to advertise itself as a bike friendly city, outside of the inner city center and student quarters biking here is very dangerous due to poor infrastructure cyclists have to share with pedestrians, cars or trams and cyclists not respecting any rules (crossing on red lights, never hand signaling a turn or a stop, etc.). Compared to the Netherlands or Denmark, biking culture and infrastructure in Austria is a national embarrassment.

Quequau 7y ago
You've reminded me that there's a five-way intersection next to Uni Graz. Some years ago they basically removed all traffic signals and most signs, basically ceding the whole area to priority for pedestrians. When I first came across it the apparent chaos was a little concerning but after walking through that place on more than one occasion I was surprised how well it worked. I've not actually been to that part of town in some time, so now I wonder if it's still like that. I'm not sure that would work in many, much less every intersection but it really made me stop and question what sort of unrecognised assumptions I had about traffic safety. This stuff is important and I think there's way to many rules and practices that are in place because of assumptions that got made back in the dawn of time... it's likely that they're not correct now but it's even possible that they were never really correct. We need evidence based policies and not so-called common wisdom.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  That intersection[1] works so well without signs by accident not by design, since it's in the most central and densest part of the city with lots of cafes that's crawling with students and cyclists coming from every direction so drivers have no choice but to drive slowly and carefully. They can't replicate this in other parts outside the city center where cars pick up speed. [1]https://maps.app.goo.gl/WeN2Q2MhVdA8Y1RK8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/WeN2Q2MhVdA8Y1RK8
- flicken 7y ago
  Yes, the intersection is alive and well without traffic signals. That's my favorite intersection in Graz, the five-way intersection of Zinzendorfgasse, Halbärthgasse, Schubertstrasse, Leechgasse, and Beethovenstrasse. The Google Maps street view has a nice view of pedestrians, bikes, and cars sharing the intersection. Buses also use the intersection, but I couldn't find any in the Google Maps view. https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0761111,15.4503833,3a,75y,310.35h,78.5t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1sNQqWa8zA7uivnnKKuMYp5g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DNQqWa8zA7uivnnKKuMYp5g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D128.75166%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i38 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0761111,15.4503833,3a,75y,31... My second favorite intersection is on the left side of Erzherzog-Johann-Brücke, where pedestrians, bikes, trams, and cars intersect with only one traffic sign (northwards on Neutorgasse). https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0710439,15.4355343,3a,75y,207.92h,86.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWXXhPAmZK6wuW0tEuo6Yeg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0710439,15.4355343,3a,75y,20...