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No. Feudal means that the land was managed by the samurai and all the rice produced on it was owned by them. The farmer class worked the fields and were paid

No. Feudal means that the land was managed by the samurai and all the rice produced on it was owned by them. The farmer class worked the fields and were paid for their production, but owned nothing. This was one of the big changes that was instituted by the Meiji restoration -- the samurai class was outlawed and farmers were allowed to own land (and have a name). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism is a useful reference. Of course Japan was not technically feudal, but the parallels with feudal Europe run deep, so most things I've read on the topic use that term. One of the reasons I started avoiding conversations on HN of late is due to questions like this. It's appears to be a very shallow dismissal of what I was saying. I really don't mind if people disagree with me -- especially when I'm saying something as extreme as I have in this thread. However, you seem to be saying that the upper classes treated the lower classes terribly badly and therefore nothing can be learned from that era. Indeed, when I say that Japanese people admire Edo culture, they are not only, or even principally, speaking of the noble classes. Indeed, most are referring to craftspeople, farmers, etc. In fact, you will even see a considerable amount of respect and gratitude toward the Yakusa who generally protected normal people against the excesses of the powerful. There is a reason for the huge number of Zatoichi movies out there, as well as all the ronin (disgraced samurai whose daimyo is dead, but who didn't commit suicide) movies where the protagonist wanders around and protects the common people. When the Meiji restoration came about, the government was keen to take on European culture and technology which it viewed as being more advanced compared to the seemingly backward analogies in Japan. So suits and neckties came into fashion. Brick and stone were used to build buildings, etc, etc. Much of the appropriate cultural technology that had evolved to suit the climate and nature of Japan was thrown out the window. Things like the natural life cycle of cloth was changed for example. Originally a parent would buy a kimono. When it was worn, it was taken apart and a kimono was made for the children from it. When it was worn, it was taken apart and cleaning cloths were made from it. When it was worn, it was burned as fuel. There was a general ban on burning firewood in parts of the Edo period because of over logging, and so people were very clever about how they got fuel. Even now, if you go to a traditional futon store and try to buy a new futon the first thing the craftsperson will ask you is if you have old cotton from a futon or zabuton. In fact, if you do not, they may heavily encourage you to go away and ask your family for old cushions and what-not as they are very loath to use new cotton if they can avoid it. Again, this comes from the Edo traditions and is something that many people cherish in Japanese culture. It's also something that is slowly disappearing as the country becomes more westernised. I hope you found the above interesting. I probably shouldn't complain about the quality of responses I get from crazy postings I make, but it's something I'm starting to feel more acutely these days. If you found what I wrote interesting, I hope you will find a way to encourage others to write something similar rather that to write in a way that may dismiss what they are saying out of hand. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, otherwise I would not have wasted my time typing all of the above, but I still had that feeling from reading the words that you typed.

mentando 7y ago
One question I have about the recycling aspect you brought up: Do you think this way of recycling is actually more efficient than on a larger scale? E.g. would it be more efficient to gather worn kimono from more people and make cleaning cloths from it? Or did I understand you wrong? From what I understood, you are saying that the old way of doing it was better, but I cannot help but feel, that some things are better on a larger scale. For me the problem with modern recycling is more the frequency and the percentage that is actually recycled, not the scale it is done at. Maybe the scale contributes to the percentage problem, but I cannot imagine the frequency being caused by it. The frequency to me seems to be caused by the marketing and the general mindset to always have the newest, shiniest toys, or to stay on clothing: fashion trends. To your first point, I agree that some people seem to be dismissing an entire comment based on one small remark. Do you think the system being a feudal one contributes to the way recycling and consumption was done? To me it has more to do with the poverty and making due, what you have. This cycles back to reusing things you already used beyond their lifespan. I cannot imagine an interaction that is born solely of the governmental system, but please share your viewpoint. Also: I don't think your viewpoint is too extreme. We should learn from our history and maybe we could even derive ways to move forward.
- mikekchar 7y ago
  I'll answer you last question first because I think it's the source of confusion. My intent was to say that despite the Edo period of Japan being feudal, Europeans documenting the period were surprised to find that people were surprisingly happy in their poverty. I wasn't intending to say that feudalism contributed positively. I suppose it's an interesting question now that I think about it, but I don't really know the answer. I think you are right that many of the things that are admired about the Edo period has to do with what's called "mottainai" in Japanese. In English you might say "Waste not want not". However there is more to it than that. One of the things you might consider is that it is more efficient to use new cloth than old cloth -- because the industry is geared towards it. As you say, you can scale the industry towards making lots of new clothes cheaply. If you make clothes from old clothes, then it is not cheap. You need someone to do it. Similarly, if you recycle old cotton for new futons, it's a labour intensive process. Maybe one day we'll have robots to do all of those things, but the attractive part of the idea is that it is a craft. It is precisely because it is not efficient that it is desirable. It provides a job. And it is more expensive. And people have less money and so there is less growth. But people have meaningful jobs doing crafts that they care about. So, is it actually less growth? It really depends on how we measure growth. My cupboards are currently full of dishes I hate. I mean, it's really true. I bought them at the 100 yen store when I moved back to Japan most recently because they were place holders for when I had time to buy something I liked. But, actually, I think this was a mistake. I should have bought things I liked and done without if I couldn't find something. A bowl will last a lifetime. It will last several lifetimes. Why are we making bowls over and over and over again? Why are we not making bowls to make up for the extra population and then basically having people trade up to nicer bowls. Nobody I know has nice bowls. And yet if I go to the "recycle" shops (used goods which are mostly filled with stuff that they picked up from estate sales), I can get truly wonderful pieces for nearly the same price as the junk I got at the 100 yen store. How is that possible? Because we're optimising our processes for the wrong kind of growth (IMHO). I often buy canned coffee (because I'm a lazy sod). I can't help but think what the process is. I want coffee. What's the first thing I need? Aluminium. Because I'm going to smelt me a can. And the can costs about 10 cents of the $1.20 that the coffee costs me (my friend actually engineers the machines that make the cans -- I asked him). So it costs "nothing". But isn't that kind of crazy? Why am I creating a can for such a transitory experience? And don't get me wrong -- the can is a thing of beauty. In the Edo period, I bet you could trade one for a house! But... I don't really need it. And this can, that is a problem for me when I can't throw it out accounts for just under 10% of the economic growth that happens when I drink the coffee. But I don't need it. I'm just lazy. Sorry... thinking off the top of my head :-)

mentando 7y ago

One question I have about the recycling aspect you brought up: Do you think this way of recycling is actually more efficient than on a larger scale? E.g. would it be more efficient to gather worn kimono from more people and make cleaning cloths from it? Or did I understand you wrong? From what I understood, you are saying that the old way of doing it was better, but I cannot help but feel, that some things are better on a larger scale. For me the problem with modern recycling is more the frequency and the percentage that is actually recycled, not the scale it is done at. Maybe the scale contributes to the percentage problem, but I cannot imagine the frequency being caused by it. The frequency to me seems to be caused by the marketing and the general mindset to always have the newest, shiniest toys, or to stay on clothing: fashion trends. To your first point, I agree that some people seem to be dismissing an entire comment based on one small remark. Do you think the system being a feudal one contributes to the way recycling and consumption was done? To me it has more to do with the poverty and making due, what you have. This cycles back to reusing things you already used beyond their lifespan. I cannot imagine an interaction that is born solely of the governmental system, but please share your viewpoint. Also: I don't think your viewpoint is too extreme. We should learn from our history and maybe we could even derive ways to move forward.

mikekchar 7y ago
I'll answer you last question first because I think it's the source of confusion. My intent was to say that despite the Edo period of Japan being feudal, Europeans documenting the period were surprised to find that people were surprisingly happy in their poverty. I wasn't intending to say that feudalism contributed positively. I suppose it's an interesting question now that I think about it, but I don't really know the answer. I think you are right that many of the things that are admired about the Edo period has to do with what's called "mottainai" in Japanese. In English you might say "Waste not want not". However there is more to it than that. One of the things you might consider is that it is more efficient to use new cloth than old cloth -- because the industry is geared towards it. As you say, you can scale the industry towards making lots of new clothes cheaply. If you make clothes from old clothes, then it is not cheap. You need someone to do it. Similarly, if you recycle old cotton for new futons, it's a labour intensive process. Maybe one day we'll have robots to do all of those things, but the attractive part of the idea is that it is a craft. It is precisely because it is not efficient that it is desirable. It provides a job. And it is more expensive. And people have less money and so there is less growth. But people have meaningful jobs doing crafts that they care about. So, is it actually less growth? It really depends on how we measure growth. My cupboards are currently full of dishes I hate. I mean, it's really true. I bought them at the 100 yen store when I moved back to Japan most recently because they were place holders for when I had time to buy something I liked. But, actually, I think this was a mistake. I should have bought things I liked and done without if I couldn't find something. A bowl will last a lifetime. It will last several lifetimes. Why are we making bowls over and over and over again? Why are we not making bowls to make up for the extra population and then basically having people trade up to nicer bowls. Nobody I know has nice bowls. And yet if I go to the "recycle" shops (used goods which are mostly filled with stuff that they picked up from estate sales), I can get truly wonderful pieces for nearly the same price as the junk I got at the 100 yen store. How is that possible? Because we're optimising our processes for the wrong kind of growth (IMHO). I often buy canned coffee (because I'm a lazy sod). I can't help but think what the process is. I want coffee. What's the first thing I need? Aluminium. Because I'm going to smelt me a can. And the can costs about 10 cents of the $1.20 that the coffee costs me (my friend actually engineers the machines that make the cans -- I asked him). So it costs "nothing". But isn't that kind of crazy? Why am I creating a can for such a transitory experience? And don't get me wrong -- the can is a thing of beauty. In the Edo period, I bet you could trade one for a house! But... I don't really need it. And this can, that is a problem for me when I can't throw it out accounts for just under 10% of the economic growth that happens when I drink the coffee. But I don't need it. I'm just lazy. Sorry... thinking off the top of my head :-)