4 ms·

Bernie Sanders Aims New Tax Hike at Executive Retirement Plans

35 points by jelliclesfarm 7y ago

missedthecue 7y ago
Looks like this would tax options at vest rather than exercise, essentially ending employee equity comp in startups. Interesting how he wants the workers to own the means of production but also is trying his damndest to disincentivize it.
- miscPerson 7y ago
  As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. That’s always been my impression of socialism and communism: unchecked good intentions justifying repeatedly failed and destructive policies. I think that’s why they also hate Amazon — at some level, they know that hundreds of millions of people voluntarily use Amazon products, while the only way they can get people to adopt their radical ideas is through coercion and force.
- mcntsh 7y ago
  It's great that a small group of people are getting rich with stocks at tech companies, but maybe another socioeconomic group needs some help for a change.
  - missedthecue 7y ago
    It does not therefore follow that this rule is the key to making that happen.
    - mcntsh 7y ago
      Which rule? Owning the means of production (via employee stock ownership programs)? That's not a part of Bernie's campaign at all.
      - missedthecue 7y ago
        The rule this whole thread is about... If he is correct in claiming that one group is being left behind, passing legislation designed to tie the hands behind the back of another group is not going to help the poorer group. His entire worldview revolves around the flawed misconception that the economy is zero-sum. That of course is a bunch of nonsense. Peter the software developer getting 0.25% equity stake in a startup does not hurt or hinder Joseph the line cook, and preventing Peter from getting that stake will not make Joseph better off.
      - mempko 7y ago
        Yes it is. He has a plan where companies over 100 million must over time give 20% of the company to employees and 40 percent of the board.
- vb6sp6 7y ago
  The people who had their equity diluted might have a different opinion
peripitea 7y ago
Is there any indication this would apply to all ISO/NSOs? Can't read the WSJ article (no subscription), but articles referencing it seem to be saying that it's targeted at highly-paid executives. Obviously this would be disastrous if it applied to all stock options. Just trying to get the facts straight before getting too riled up.
- chovy 7y ago
  as a middle class tech worker i like bernie but he's going to fuck us over the most.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    As a middle class tech worker I don't see how.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Maybe depends to which middle class you're comparing yourself to, the Bay Area, or the rest of the US.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - redisman 7y ago
    How many major pieces of legislation does a president get through? One or two seems like the median these days. I doubt this is in his top 20 bills.
    - zimpenfish 7y ago
      > How many major pieces of legislation does a president get through? Without flipping the Senate or replacing McConnell, a Democrat POTUS will get bugger all through unless they can do it through executive orders (AFAIK.)
      - 7y ago
stuntkite 7y ago
I'm pretty privileged and more than happy to pay a reasonable tax on my fortune if people richer than me who can afford to assemble legal tax shelters can be wrangled in to pay their share too. Also, tax churches. If we could incentivize startup structures that are less focused on pump and dump #growthhax and more on creation of organizations that produce value for the communities they are in and the people who trade their lives and labor for a crumbling fig leaf of security and happiness. That shit would be hot. VC money is crack money. The squandered wealth propped up by rich opportunists on the backs of creative efforts of hard working people hedged so said rich people can fail upwards while worker lives are ruined for a taste of a Zuckerberg dream is gross. Without dinging the frequent big winners in this space via taxes there isn't really a mechanism to encourage self regulation.
- stevenicr 7y ago
  That churches thing - I find they have other benefits too. Is there a few clicks create a church have all the legal and what-have-you filed and such like stripe does with del corps? Might be time to setup one of these things.
  - stuntkite 7y ago
    It does appear that a lot of people believe religiously that they shouldn't pay taxes. We should all start churches. Maybe get a lawyer or three involved and make enough churches flagrantly abusing the law that the supreme court has to hear a case. The Church of Satan kind of does stuff like that. They do have other benefits but they very state to state. Like that guy that legalized his ayahuasca church in Kentucky[0] because they have a law that says you can do whatever drugs you want if it's a religious ceremony. It's stupid that you need a church for that, but also pretty rad that he can do it there. It appears to be helping a lot of people. It appears that there are services for filing the needed documents. StartChurch.com pops up with a quick google. It looks nice. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88xpl-5ro0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88xpl-5ro0
    - stevenicr 7y ago
throwGuardian 7y ago
What's fascinating about Bernie's campaign is the almost identical stance he has with the Bolsheviks, that Google defines [1] as "...Russian Social Democratic Party". So Bernie's P.R. consultants did the brilliant job of retaining most of the Bolshevik diktat, and switching "Social Democratic" to "Democratic Socialist", in an apparent attempt at sanitizing brand socialism. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=Bolshevik https://www.google.com/search?q=Bolshevik
pyuser583 7y ago
What’s fascinating about Bernie is how familiar he is. A 1960s radical who went to a top level university (UofC), has never belonged to a union, has worked in government or non profit sector all his life, etc. Never worked for consulting or finance or academia. There sorts of folks used to be much more common in politics. Now they’re mostly retired. It’s not bad per se. But not really new. In fact, very very old. I guess Bernie is the last roar of the 1960s generation. Very telling that his generation is rejecting him in the polls. 1960s radicals were always divisive an unpopular in mainstream America. The left hasn’t done a very good job figuring out what it’s next step should be, so taking a step back might be a good idea.
- thundergolfer 7y ago
  Really confused by your comment to be honest. Maybe it’s an age gap thing? because Bernie is a deeply unfamiliar political animal to people who are less than 40. Also the left knows exactly what it’s need step should be. There’s obvious changes to be made in the areas of healthcare, wealth inequality, and environment. In what sense has “the left” not got a clear next step?
  - lasagnaphil 7y ago
    Maybe the commenter failed to distinguish between “left” and “liberal”, resulting in a confusion. Right now it’s the liberals who doesn’t have a clear next step, failing to acknowledge that they are part of the problem for the US’s staggering wealth inequality (which by the way, is the fundamental reason why Trump won), and now just trying to present a more “milder” version of Bernie’s policies to pander to voters.
    - pyuser583 7y ago
      I was referring to the Democratic Party, which is the more left leaning of the two main American political parties. And additional any left of center activists affiliated with it. Yes, one can refer to liberalism in an economic and philosophical sense which is very different. Yet, few Republicans, including very libertarian leaning ones, would ever identify as liberal. Nobody would call Barry Goldwater a liberal, even though he very much fit the definition.

35 points by jelliclesfarm 7y ago

Looks like this would tax options at vest rather than exercise, essentially ending employee equity comp in startups. Interesting how he wants the workers to own the means of production but also is trying his damndest to disincentivize it.

miscPerson 7y ago
As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. That’s always been my impression of socialism and communism: unchecked good intentions justifying repeatedly failed and destructive policies. I think that’s why they also hate Amazon — at some level, they know that hundreds of millions of people voluntarily use Amazon products, while the only way they can get people to adopt their radical ideas is through coercion and force.
mcntsh 7y ago
It's great that a small group of people are getting rich with stocks at tech companies, but maybe another socioeconomic group needs some help for a change.
- missedthecue 7y ago
  It does not therefore follow that this rule is the key to making that happen.
  - mcntsh 7y ago
    Which rule? Owning the means of production (via employee stock ownership programs)? That's not a part of Bernie's campaign at all.
    - missedthecue 7y ago
      The rule this whole thread is about... If he is correct in claiming that one group is being left behind, passing legislation designed to tie the hands behind the back of another group is not going to help the poorer group. His entire worldview revolves around the flawed misconception that the economy is zero-sum. That of course is a bunch of nonsense. Peter the software developer getting 0.25% equity stake in a startup does not hurt or hinder Joseph the line cook, and preventing Peter from getting that stake will not make Joseph better off.
    - mempko 7y ago
      Yes it is. He has a plan where companies over 100 million must over time give 20% of the company to employees and 40 percent of the board.
vb6sp6 7y ago
The people who had their equity diluted might have a different opinion

peripitea 7y ago

Is there any indication this would apply to all ISO/NSOs? Can't read the WSJ article (no subscription), but articles referencing it seem to be saying that it's targeted at highly-paid executives. Obviously this would be disastrous if it applied to all stock options. Just trying to get the facts straight before getting too riled up.

chovy 7y ago
as a middle class tech worker i like bernie but he's going to fuck us over the most.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  As a middle class tech worker I don't see how.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Maybe depends to which middle class you're comparing yourself to, the Bay Area, or the rest of the US.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- redisman 7y ago
  How many major pieces of legislation does a president get through? One or two seems like the median these days. I doubt this is in his top 20 bills.
  - zimpenfish 7y ago
    > How many major pieces of legislation does a president get through? Without flipping the Senate or replacing McConnell, a Democrat POTUS will get bugger all through unless they can do it through executive orders (AFAIK.)
    - 7y ago

stuntkite 7y ago

I'm pretty privileged and more than happy to pay a reasonable tax on my fortune if people richer than me who can afford to assemble legal tax shelters can be wrangled in to pay their share too. Also, tax churches. If we could incentivize startup structures that are less focused on pump and dump #growthhax and more on creation of organizations that produce value for the communities they are in and the people who trade their lives and labor for a crumbling fig leaf of security and happiness. That shit would be hot. VC money is crack money. The squandered wealth propped up by rich opportunists on the backs of creative efforts of hard working people hedged so said rich people can fail upwards while worker lives are ruined for a taste of a Zuckerberg dream is gross. Without dinging the frequent big winners in this space via taxes there isn't really a mechanism to encourage self regulation.

stevenicr 7y ago
That churches thing - I find they have other benefits too. Is there a few clicks create a church have all the legal and what-have-you filed and such like stripe does with del corps? Might be time to setup one of these things.
- stuntkite 7y ago
  It does appear that a lot of people believe religiously that they shouldn't pay taxes. We should all start churches. Maybe get a lawyer or three involved and make enough churches flagrantly abusing the law that the supreme court has to hear a case. The Church of Satan kind of does stuff like that. They do have other benefits but they very state to state. Like that guy that legalized his ayahuasca church in Kentucky[0] because they have a law that says you can do whatever drugs you want if it's a religious ceremony. It's stupid that you need a church for that, but also pretty rad that he can do it there. It appears to be helping a lot of people. It appears that there are services for filing the needed documents. StartChurch.com pops up with a quick google. It looks nice. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88xpl-5ro0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88xpl-5ro0
  - stevenicr 7y ago

throwGuardian 7y ago

What's fascinating about Bernie's campaign is the almost identical stance he has with the Bolsheviks, that Google defines [1] as "...Russian Social Democratic Party". So Bernie's P.R. consultants did the brilliant job of retaining most of the Bolshevik diktat, and switching "Social Democratic" to "Democratic Socialist", in an apparent attempt at sanitizing brand socialism. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=Bolshevik https://www.google.com/search?q=Bolshevik

pyuser583 7y ago

What’s fascinating about Bernie is how familiar he is. A 1960s radical who went to a top level university (UofC), has never belonged to a union, has worked in government or non profit sector all his life, etc. Never worked for consulting or finance or academia. There sorts of folks used to be much more common in politics. Now they’re mostly retired. It’s not bad per se. But not really new. In fact, very very old. I guess Bernie is the last roar of the 1960s generation. Very telling that his generation is rejecting him in the polls. 1960s radicals were always divisive an unpopular in mainstream America. The left hasn’t done a very good job figuring out what it’s next step should be, so taking a step back might be a good idea.

thundergolfer 7y ago
Really confused by your comment to be honest. Maybe it’s an age gap thing? because Bernie is a deeply unfamiliar political animal to people who are less than 40. Also the left knows exactly what it’s need step should be. There’s obvious changes to be made in the areas of healthcare, wealth inequality, and environment. In what sense has “the left” not got a clear next step?
- lasagnaphil 7y ago
  Maybe the commenter failed to distinguish between “left” and “liberal”, resulting in a confusion. Right now it’s the liberals who doesn’t have a clear next step, failing to acknowledge that they are part of the problem for the US’s staggering wealth inequality (which by the way, is the fundamental reason why Trump won), and now just trying to present a more “milder” version of Bernie’s policies to pander to voters.
  - pyuser583 7y ago
    I was referring to the Democratic Party, which is the more left leaning of the two main American political parties. And additional any left of center activists affiliated with it. Yes, one can refer to liberalism in an economic and philosophical sense which is very different. Yet, few Republicans, including very libertarian leaning ones, would ever identify as liberal. Nobody would call Barry Goldwater a liberal, even though he very much fit the definition.