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This is how I feel. Walk the walk and talk the talk in small ways on a daily basis, and learn about and push for policy changes to try and encourage big change

This is how I feel. Walk the walk and talk the talk in small ways on a daily basis, and learn about and push for policy changes to try and encourage big changes. Or, to put it differently: on average, the people I know in my life who think about straw-waste reduction (and similar activities) positively are the ones also wanting larger changes. The people I know with disdain for "straw bans" and "plastic bag bans" also don't care about, or aren't aware of, the larger issues. They use the argument that "it's an irrelevant fix" as a shield to avoid thinking about the actual larger problems.

ficklepickle 7y ago
My experience is the opposite. The people I have seen that care about the straw ban tend to pat themselves on the back and virtue signal about it, while doing nothing else. The skeptic in me believes the whole thing has been promoted to make people feel better and keep on consuming. Just like "recycling" where most just goes to a landfill or worse. It's just another way to punt the problem to the end user instead of dealing with it in a systematic manner.
- aspenmayer 7y ago
  I think you’re both right. As Slavoj Žižek concisely put it: >It’s in the commodity itself the price of your leftist, honest, resistance to consumerism is included.[0] Some hope for a consumerist or market solution because that is the easiest way to feel like a part of the solution and not part of the problem. Individual responsibility is a concept shared by both groups to varying degrees. This is exploited by the market to create a market for products advertised as solutions. These market solutions may not go far enough, but it signals a willingness to put your money where your mouth is. That it ends up being ineffectual or even counter productive is a cruel irony of consumerism and its way of serving its own ends and not necessarily those of any individuals market participants. It’s almost like the market is a means to its own end and any consequences bad or good are incidental to the goals of the participants. If we’re trained to shop on price or quality it seems that every kind of solution the market can provide will inherently be a marketable solution. As in a product or service or other good. I guess what I mean to say is that the other group which is advocating for larger societal changes may not ever see progress. Social and legislative changes take time and effort. It seems the effect is much larger when these social changes are made in this way. Perhaps that is why regulatory capture is an important business concept. For market participants it is an existential necessity to make sure they can continue to participate in the market. We have misaligned incentives everywhere. It’s in the markets’ interest that we only see market based solutions as viable or possible or realistic. That makes us discouraged from pursuing other ways of signaling our desires and intentions and keeps us locked in as market participants. We never get better because we settle for less. Sorry kind of all over the place and no real conclusion. Change is coming either way so might as well pull all the levers that make sense for your ethical and ecological framework and hope for the best. >[T]his readiness to assume the guilt for the threats to our environment is deceptively reassuring: We like to be guilty since, if we are guilty, it all depends on us. We pull the strings of the catastrophe, so we can also save ourselves simply by changing our lives. What is really hard for us (at least in the West) to accept is that we are reduced to the role of a passive observer who sits and watches what our fate will be. To avoid this impotence, we engage in frantic, obsessive activities. We recycle old paper, we buy organic food, we install long-lasting light bulbs—whatever—just so we can be sure that we are doing something. We make our individual contribution like the soccer fan who supports his team in front of a TV screen at home, shouting and jumping from his seat, in the belief that this will somehow influence the game's outcome. [2] https://youtu.be/yzcfsq1_bt8 https://youtu.be/yzcfsq1_bt8 [0] http://www.jonathanwaring.net/2010/07/16/slavoj-zizek-and-the-recycling-superstition/ http://www.jonathanwaring.net/2010/07/16/slavoj-zizek-and-th... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/cqu5x/slavoj_žižek_and_the_recycling_superstition/ https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/cqu5x/slavoj_ži... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/269707-t-his-readiness-to-assume-the-guilt-for-the-threats-to https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/269707-t-his-readiness-to-a...

ficklepickle 7y ago

My experience is the opposite. The people I have seen that care about the straw ban tend to pat themselves on the back and virtue signal about it, while doing nothing else. The skeptic in me believes the whole thing has been promoted to make people feel better and keep on consuming. Just like "recycling" where most just goes to a landfill or worse. It's just another way to punt the problem to the end user instead of dealing with it in a systematic manner.

aspenmayer 7y ago
I think you’re both right. As Slavoj Žižek concisely put it: >It’s in the commodity itself the price of your leftist, honest, resistance to consumerism is included.[0] Some hope for a consumerist or market solution because that is the easiest way to feel like a part of the solution and not part of the problem. Individual responsibility is a concept shared by both groups to varying degrees. This is exploited by the market to create a market for products advertised as solutions. These market solutions may not go far enough, but it signals a willingness to put your money where your mouth is. That it ends up being ineffectual or even counter productive is a cruel irony of consumerism and its way of serving its own ends and not necessarily those of any individuals market participants. It’s almost like the market is a means to its own end and any consequences bad or good are incidental to the goals of the participants. If we’re trained to shop on price or quality it seems that every kind of solution the market can provide will inherently be a marketable solution. As in a product or service or other good. I guess what I mean to say is that the other group which is advocating for larger societal changes may not ever see progress. Social and legislative changes take time and effort. It seems the effect is much larger when these social changes are made in this way. Perhaps that is why regulatory capture is an important business concept. For market participants it is an existential necessity to make sure they can continue to participate in the market. We have misaligned incentives everywhere. It’s in the markets’ interest that we only see market based solutions as viable or possible or realistic. That makes us discouraged from pursuing other ways of signaling our desires and intentions and keeps us locked in as market participants. We never get better because we settle for less. Sorry kind of all over the place and no real conclusion. Change is coming either way so might as well pull all the levers that make sense for your ethical and ecological framework and hope for the best. >[T]his readiness to assume the guilt for the threats to our environment is deceptively reassuring: We like to be guilty since, if we are guilty, it all depends on us. We pull the strings of the catastrophe, so we can also save ourselves simply by changing our lives. What is really hard for us (at least in the West) to accept is that we are reduced to the role of a passive observer who sits and watches what our fate will be. To avoid this impotence, we engage in frantic, obsessive activities. We recycle old paper, we buy organic food, we install long-lasting light bulbs—whatever—just so we can be sure that we are doing something. We make our individual contribution like the soccer fan who supports his team in front of a TV screen at home, shouting and jumping from his seat, in the belief that this will somehow influence the game's outcome. [2] https://youtu.be/yzcfsq1_bt8 https://youtu.be/yzcfsq1_bt8 [0] http://www.jonathanwaring.net/2010/07/16/slavoj-zizek-and-the-recycling-superstition/ http://www.jonathanwaring.net/2010/07/16/slavoj-zizek-and-th... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/cqu5x/slavoj_žižek_and_the_recycling_superstition/ https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/cqu5x/slavoj_ži... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/269707-t-his-readiness-to-assume-the-guilt-for-the-threats-to https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/269707-t-his-readiness-to-a...