4 ms·

I would not be too surprised if components used in this device come out to total price range of 5k€-10k€ in one-off quantities, which paints the price in differ

by dfox 7y ago

I would not be too surprised if components used in this device come out to total price range of 5k€-10k€ in one-off quantities, which paints the price in different light.

ohazi 7y ago
The individual transistors that are used for the LNA and power amplifier stages of these transceivers usually sell for tens to low hundreds of dollars a piece in single unit quantities. A good design will probably use 4-10 of them, depending mostly on output power requirements. Throw in a few mixers for up/downconversion, some expensive ADCs, an FPGA, a CNCed aluminum enclosure, and you quickly end up at around $1000-$5000 in parts. There's definitely demand for these radios, but it's no consumer product, so the markup is going to be painful. There's definitely opportunity here, but it will be difficult to get the prices down significantly when there are like five semiconductor companies that are doing most of the gouging. They're very happy with their current "sell you a specialty part for $45 that costs them $2 to produce" business.
- Reelin 7y ago
  > They're very happy with their current "sell you a specialty part for $45 that costs them $2 to produce" business. How difficult is it to design these parts and successfully fabricate them? Are they expensive simply because they're uncommon, or is the R&D process for them nontrivial?
  - extrapickles 7y ago
    The main problem is the lack of scale to spread the R&D costs over. If a part takes $1m to develop, and you only sell a few thousand of them, the part will be in the hundreds of dollars regardless of how "cheap" it is to make. QA processes also add a fair amount to the final price as each part might have several hours of individual attention by a technician to make sure it operates perfectly. Even for something as simple as a strut, they might saw every other one they make in two to inspect it for defects as doing so is vastly cheaper than having something fail in launch or orbit.
  - madengr 7y ago
    The space qualified transistors are: Hermetic ceramic and copper tungsten packages. Eutectic die attach. Hand wired bonded. X-rayed for voiding under die. Gettered to absorb hydrogen. High temperature lid soldering in helium atmosphere. Leak tested. RF-DC burned in and thermal cycled. Note the threshold voltage changes as the parts are burned in, so all these parts are aged. The PCBs are aluminum backed. Gold selectively removed from PCB traces to prevent solder embrittlement. Parts sometimes vacuum soldered to PCB (to prevent voiding). X-Rayed to look for voids. Cleaned and vacuum baked. RF-DC burn in. My stuff had the lids welded on. Vibration tested. More electrical testing and thermal cycling. Ping tested to hear for loose parts and solder balls. All this adds up the cost. Rework is a nightmare, especially after the lids are welded. All the other SMT parts are also S-level. A single tube of low-outgassing RTV (Dow 340) is $600.
- madengr 7y ago
  I have built several X-band transmitters, both ground and space qualified. The space qualified GaAs FETs in the latter were $7k each.
  - someguydave 7y ago
    Yeah the hard part isn’t the parts, it’s the testing and qualification that’s worth the money.
    - madengr 7y ago
      Yep. Tons of documentation and paperwork trail too. We had some silver epoxy slowly degrade (loose conductivity) over 3 years. It was used to put down some thin film RF attenuators, thus the ground lifted and attenuation was lost (slightly), possibly affecting an AGC loop. Had to go back and rework units that were already mothballed for launch, or else (possible) latent failures. I’m glad I no longer do that shit; couldn’t pay me enough. I had nightmares about shit like this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA-19#/media/File%3ANOAA-N'_accident.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA-19#/media/File%3ANOAA-N...
- madengr 7y ago
  There is no gouging going on. You’d be lucky not to loose money with all the headaches of doing space and military stuff. I can tell you the last space stuff I worked on, we were the third contractor to work on it, as the 1st and 2nd said “fuck it” and refused the follow-on contracts. There is no money in it.

by dfox 7y ago

I would not be too surprised if components used in this device come out to total price range of 5k€-10k€ in one-off quantities, which paints the price in different light.

ohazi 7y ago

The individual transistors that are used for the LNA and power amplifier stages of these transceivers usually sell for tens to low hundreds of dollars a piece in single unit quantities. A good design will probably use 4-10 of them, depending mostly on output power requirements. Throw in a few mixers for up/downconversion, some expensive ADCs, an FPGA, a CNCed aluminum enclosure, and you quickly end up at around $1000-$5000 in parts. There's definitely demand for these radios, but it's no consumer product, so the markup is going to be painful. There's definitely opportunity here, but it will be difficult to get the prices down significantly when there are like five semiconductor companies that are doing most of the gouging. They're very happy with their current "sell you a specialty part for $45 that costs them $2 to produce" business.

Reelin 7y ago
> They're very happy with their current "sell you a specialty part for $45 that costs them $2 to produce" business. How difficult is it to design these parts and successfully fabricate them? Are they expensive simply because they're uncommon, or is the R&D process for them nontrivial?
- extrapickles 7y ago
  The main problem is the lack of scale to spread the R&D costs over. If a part takes $1m to develop, and you only sell a few thousand of them, the part will be in the hundreds of dollars regardless of how "cheap" it is to make. QA processes also add a fair amount to the final price as each part might have several hours of individual attention by a technician to make sure it operates perfectly. Even for something as simple as a strut, they might saw every other one they make in two to inspect it for defects as doing so is vastly cheaper than having something fail in launch or orbit.
- madengr 7y ago
  The space qualified transistors are: Hermetic ceramic and copper tungsten packages. Eutectic die attach. Hand wired bonded. X-rayed for voiding under die. Gettered to absorb hydrogen. High temperature lid soldering in helium atmosphere. Leak tested. RF-DC burned in and thermal cycled. Note the threshold voltage changes as the parts are burned in, so all these parts are aged. The PCBs are aluminum backed. Gold selectively removed from PCB traces to prevent solder embrittlement. Parts sometimes vacuum soldered to PCB (to prevent voiding). X-Rayed to look for voids. Cleaned and vacuum baked. RF-DC burn in. My stuff had the lids welded on. Vibration tested. More electrical testing and thermal cycling. Ping tested to hear for loose parts and solder balls. All this adds up the cost. Rework is a nightmare, especially after the lids are welded. All the other SMT parts are also S-level. A single tube of low-outgassing RTV (Dow 340) is $600.
madengr 7y ago
I have built several X-band transmitters, both ground and space qualified. The space qualified GaAs FETs in the latter were $7k each.
- someguydave 7y ago
  Yeah the hard part isn’t the parts, it’s the testing and qualification that’s worth the money.
  - madengr 7y ago
    Yep. Tons of documentation and paperwork trail too. We had some silver epoxy slowly degrade (loose conductivity) over 3 years. It was used to put down some thin film RF attenuators, thus the ground lifted and attenuation was lost (slightly), possibly affecting an AGC loop. Had to go back and rework units that were already mothballed for launch, or else (possible) latent failures. I’m glad I no longer do that shit; couldn’t pay me enough. I had nightmares about shit like this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA-19#/media/File%3ANOAA-N'_accident.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA-19#/media/File%3ANOAA-N...
madengr 7y ago
There is no gouging going on. You’d be lucky not to loose money with all the headaches of doing space and military stuff. I can tell you the last space stuff I worked on, we were the third contractor to work on it, as the 1st and 2nd said “fuck it” and refused the follow-on contracts. There is no money in it.