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I can't count the number of times I've looked at a data visualization and wished I could sit down with the person who made it and read an Edward Tufte book to t

I can't count the number of times I've looked at a data visualization and wished I could sit down with the person who made it and read an Edward Tufte book to them. There's just so few good examples out there of data visualizations that respect basic principles of visual communication, like the ones outlined in this article. They generally seem to aim more for visual impact (like the useless 3D display in the article, which you've gotta admit is striking) than for clarity, which I guess is understandable but is still too bad. (And as long as I'm griping, don't get me started on all the people who think a wall of text slapped into a PNG constitutes an "infographic.")

ubertakter 7y ago
It seems like you are complaining about graphics in the article, but I'm not sure. If you read the article, it specifically talks about why those are not good visualizations and gives pointers on developing good ones. For the 3D one specifically, right under the graphic, the article says: "3D has a time and a place. It can be a really useful way to encode thematic data on the z-axis and make something useful. But extruding Hubei compared to the rest of the areas just doesn’t work. It’s gratuitous and adds nothing. It’s really hard to make any sense of relative amounts and that’s before we even deal with foreshortening and occlusion."
- smacktoward 7y ago
  I read the article, thank you. It's you who have misread my comment. I was praising the article for illustrating good principles of visual communication, and lamenting how there are so many people making data visualizations out there that don't understand this stuff. P.S. From the HN guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith... Please don't comment on whether someone read an article.
  - codetrotter 7y ago
    As someone who read your comment before reading the article, I took your comment to mean that the article was poor because it had bad graphics. That's not a criticism against you on my part btw, only an observation. So it might be that more people read your comment that same way due to how you phrased it.
    - blattimwind 7y ago
      The article has bad graphics. The question whether GGGP criticizes the article or not is only resolvable if you know both the comment and the article. If you do, the answer is quite obvious. If not, it is hard to predict. A wonderful example of entropy.
  - bobwaycott 7y ago
    > ... lamenting how there are so many people making data visualizations out there that don't understand this stuff. This point was clear in your top comment. > I was praising the article for illustrating good principles of visual communication... This point was completely unclear in your top comment. I read your top comment three times, and each time made me feel more certain you were complaining about the site as an example of failing to implement good visualizations (until I read this comment).
  - ubertakter 7y ago
    Hence my first sentence, "It seems like you are complaining about graphics in the article, but I'm not sure." First you said, "I can't count the number of times I've looked at a data visualization and wished I could sit down with the person who made it and read an Edward Tufte book to them." I was and am 100% on board with this comment. I think the same thing often. Then you said "There's just so few good examples out there of data visualizations that respect basic principles of visual communication, like the ones outlined in this article." I agree, the article does a pretty good job. Then, "They generally seem to aim more for visual impact (like the useless 3D display in the article, which you've gotta admit is striking) than for clarity, which I guess is understandable but is still too bad." I was uncertain about this statement. The previous sentence you start by stating "There's just so few good examples..." and end with "...like the ones outline in this article", which made it a little unclear if the one's in the article were good or not, but as I was reading it I was leaning to the good side. Then this sentence started with "They generally seem...", and since the end of the previous sentence ended talking about the "ones outlined in the article", I associated "They" with "the ones in the article". And this sentence that started with "They generally" was negative. Then I contributed some miscommunication. When I used "you" in the sentence I was thinking in general terms (including myself) and not you personally. I think that might have been better stated as "If one reads the article...". Anyway, I was initially confused by your statement. Now I see what you were going for. Edits: grammar, missing words
taeric 7y ago
Map visualizations are the worst. The xkcd in how they are typically just population maps...
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
  Maps are often abused or misused, but I'd be curious to know why you believe map viz in general to be the worst. Done responsibly, they can and often are extremely insightful, serving purposes that no other viz can. The fact that most maps are terrible means we need to encourage better maps, not dismiss them entirely.
  - taeric 7y ago
    That argument can be used for any visualization. Used correctly, they are usually good. That said, I am being dramatic on my claim. It doesn't help that I don't have an internal map. I'm oddly good with directions, but I do not visualize getting from here to there in anything resembling a map in my mind. So, to that end, most maps that someone uses to show me something that it is best at, a simple time series or scatter plot would have done as well. Often better. That is to say, selection bias on my part. ;)
- kps 7y ago
  xkcd 1138, not to be confused with THX 1138.
- flukus 7y ago
  My pet peeve is electoral maps, they show some interesting trends but there overuse make us seem a lot more divided on geographic lines than we actually are.
bitxbit 7y ago
I think Tufte is very overrated. People who are reasonably comfortable with data rather have it in basic format. Tufte-style often takes a lot of effort to produce and the payoff isn’t there. Consultants love it though because they can bill their clients for playing around for hours with charts.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  Where Tufte (and others like him) is concerned, I try to remember the maxim Do not follow in the footsteps of the sages. Seek what they sought. Slavishly reproducing his methodology ignores everything we've learned since then. On the other hand, for those new to the field, reading about his work and understanding what he was trying to accomplish with the tools available at the time can open our eyes to new ways of thinking. (As an aside, this same maxim has also helped me with things like programming tools. We don't need to use Lisp or Smalltalk for everything, but we can learn a lot from these languages, and especially from what their creators and proponents were trying to achieve with them.)
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Furthermore, there are different styles for different purposes. The famous graphic about Napoleon's army which is very associated with Tufte is an example of a graphic that crams a lot of data into an illustration that rewards careful study. It's actually not a graphic that especially makes data about something obvious at a quick glance. Sometimes an illustration that best serves as a background for a knowledgeable person spending 30 minutes explaining it is a good approach. Other times you want to capture the contrast between a few numbers in a compelling way.
    - ticmasta 7y ago
      I have and admire this graphic and I think it highlights a few top-level things you mention like the right representation for the right audience. It takes some time and concentration to understand the Napoleon graphic vs. a simpler presentation where a few key points jumping out at you with ease, but that it manages to encode so many dimensions into a 2-d format is where it is unique. Tufte generally pushes information density over other, equally as valid, goals.
piffey 7y ago
I loved this look back on data visualization from The Economist. You might as well. https://medium.economist.com/mistakes-weve-drawn-a-few-8cdd8a42d368 https://medium.economist.com/mistakes-weve-drawn-a-few-8cdd8...
catacombs 7y ago
> read an Edward Tufte book to them Tufte, as another user correctly pointed out, is massively overrated. He is also incredibly thin-skinned and often blocks people, many of whom work in data visualization, if they criticize or critique his work or ideas. Alberto Cairo is just as overrated, but he is more receptive to feedback.
- alanh 7y ago
  See my rebuttal to that other comment. And please elevate your discussion from the realm of feelings about people. Let’s say he is thin-skinned. So? That doesn’t change how helpful and eye-opening his delightful books are.

ubertakter 7y ago

It seems like you are complaining about graphics in the article, but I'm not sure. If you read the article, it specifically talks about why those are not good visualizations and gives pointers on developing good ones. For the 3D one specifically, right under the graphic, the article says: "3D has a time and a place. It can be a really useful way to encode thematic data on the z-axis and make something useful. But extruding Hubei compared to the rest of the areas just doesn’t work. It’s gratuitous and adds nothing. It’s really hard to make any sense of relative amounts and that’s before we even deal with foreshortening and occlusion."

smacktoward 7y ago
I read the article, thank you. It's you who have misread my comment. I was praising the article for illustrating good principles of visual communication, and lamenting how there are so many people making data visualizations out there that don't understand this stuff. P.S. From the HN guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith... Please don't comment on whether someone read an article.
- codetrotter 7y ago
  As someone who read your comment before reading the article, I took your comment to mean that the article was poor because it had bad graphics. That's not a criticism against you on my part btw, only an observation. So it might be that more people read your comment that same way due to how you phrased it.
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    The article has bad graphics. The question whether GGGP criticizes the article or not is only resolvable if you know both the comment and the article. If you do, the answer is quite obvious. If not, it is hard to predict. A wonderful example of entropy.
- bobwaycott 7y ago
  > ... lamenting how there are so many people making data visualizations out there that don't understand this stuff. This point was clear in your top comment. > I was praising the article for illustrating good principles of visual communication... This point was completely unclear in your top comment. I read your top comment three times, and each time made me feel more certain you were complaining about the site as an example of failing to implement good visualizations (until I read this comment).
- ubertakter 7y ago
  Hence my first sentence, "It seems like you are complaining about graphics in the article, but I'm not sure." First you said, "I can't count the number of times I've looked at a data visualization and wished I could sit down with the person who made it and read an Edward Tufte book to them." I was and am 100% on board with this comment. I think the same thing often. Then you said "There's just so few good examples out there of data visualizations that respect basic principles of visual communication, like the ones outlined in this article." I agree, the article does a pretty good job. Then, "They generally seem to aim more for visual impact (like the useless 3D display in the article, which you've gotta admit is striking) than for clarity, which I guess is understandable but is still too bad." I was uncertain about this statement. The previous sentence you start by stating "There's just so few good examples..." and end with "...like the ones outline in this article", which made it a little unclear if the one's in the article were good or not, but as I was reading it I was leaning to the good side. Then this sentence started with "They generally seem...", and since the end of the previous sentence ended talking about the "ones outlined in the article", I associated "They" with "the ones in the article". And this sentence that started with "They generally" was negative. Then I contributed some miscommunication. When I used "you" in the sentence I was thinking in general terms (including myself) and not you personally. I think that might have been better stated as "If one reads the article...". Anyway, I was initially confused by your statement. Now I see what you were going for. Edits: grammar, missing words

taeric 7y ago

Map visualizations are the worst. The xkcd in how they are typically just population maps...

EForEndeavour 7y ago
Maps are often abused or misused, but I'd be curious to know why you believe map viz in general to be the worst. Done responsibly, they can and often are extremely insightful, serving purposes that no other viz can. The fact that most maps are terrible means we need to encourage better maps, not dismiss them entirely.
- taeric 7y ago
  That argument can be used for any visualization. Used correctly, they are usually good. That said, I am being dramatic on my claim. It doesn't help that I don't have an internal map. I'm oddly good with directions, but I do not visualize getting from here to there in anything resembling a map in my mind. So, to that end, most maps that someone uses to show me something that it is best at, a simple time series or scatter plot would have done as well. Often better. That is to say, selection bias on my part. ;)
kps 7y ago
xkcd 1138, not to be confused with THX 1138.
flukus 7y ago
My pet peeve is electoral maps, they show some interesting trends but there overuse make us seem a lot more divided on geographic lines than we actually are.

bitxbit 7y ago

I think Tufte is very overrated. People who are reasonably comfortable with data rather have it in basic format. Tufte-style often takes a lot of effort to produce and the payoff isn’t there. Consultants love it though because they can bill their clients for playing around for hours with charts.

braythwayt 7y ago
Where Tufte (and others like him) is concerned, I try to remember the maxim Do not follow in the footsteps of the sages. Seek what they sought. Slavishly reproducing his methodology ignores everything we've learned since then. On the other hand, for those new to the field, reading about his work and understanding what he was trying to accomplish with the tools available at the time can open our eyes to new ways of thinking. (As an aside, this same maxim has also helped me with things like programming tools. We don't need to use Lisp or Smalltalk for everything, but we can learn a lot from these languages, and especially from what their creators and proponents were trying to achieve with them.)
- ghaff 7y ago
  Furthermore, there are different styles for different purposes. The famous graphic about Napoleon's army which is very associated with Tufte is an example of a graphic that crams a lot of data into an illustration that rewards careful study. It's actually not a graphic that especially makes data about something obvious at a quick glance. Sometimes an illustration that best serves as a background for a knowledgeable person spending 30 minutes explaining it is a good approach. Other times you want to capture the contrast between a few numbers in a compelling way.
  - ticmasta 7y ago
    I have and admire this graphic and I think it highlights a few top-level things you mention like the right representation for the right audience. It takes some time and concentration to understand the Napoleon graphic vs. a simpler presentation where a few key points jumping out at you with ease, but that it manages to encode so many dimensions into a 2-d format is where it is unique. Tufte generally pushes information density over other, equally as valid, goals.

piffey 7y ago

I loved this look back on data visualization from The Economist. You might as well. https://medium.economist.com/mistakes-weve-drawn-a-few-8cdd8a42d368 https://medium.economist.com/mistakes-weve-drawn-a-few-8cdd8...

catacombs 7y ago

> read an Edward Tufte book to them Tufte, as another user correctly pointed out, is massively overrated. He is also incredibly thin-skinned and often blocks people, many of whom work in data visualization, if they criticize or critique his work or ideas. Alberto Cairo is just as overrated, but he is more receptive to feedback.

alanh 7y ago
See my rebuttal to that other comment. And please elevate your discussion from the realm of feelings about people. Let’s say he is thin-skinned. So? That doesn’t change how helpful and eye-opening his delightful books are.