8 ms·

Masks in Japan are based on the desire of Japaneses not to infect others and not to spread their own germs. They won't filter the air coming in or out, but they

Masks in Japan are based on the desire of Japaneses not to infect others and not to spread their own germs. They won't filter the air coming in or out, but they'll catch a sneeze and a cough. They also make it so you don't put your fingers in your mouth or nose. It's the sick that wear them. You barely see them elsewhere because the idea of "wear something uncomfortable for the sake of others" is a hard sell in the west.

cpeterso 7y ago
If you are sick enough to wear a mask in public, you should probably just stay home.
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  "According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the average number of paid sick days often corresponds directly with years of service. Here are the averages for workers in private industry: Workers receive 7 sick days per year with 1 to 5 years of service. Workers receive 8 sick days per year with 5 to 10 years of service." + "For colds, most individuals become contagious about a day before cold symptoms develop and remain contagious for about five to seven days." / "If you have the flu, you'll be contagious one day before developing symptoms and up to five to seven days after becoming ill." = One cold would take up all your sick days. By following your recommendation, someone falling sick more than once a year would have to quit their job.
  - DelightOne 7y ago
    Doesn't sound nice true. How do you transmit the flu to others without symptoms like sneezing/running nose?
    - chmod775 7y ago
      There exists a metric ton of other possible vectors for viruses to spread. It depends on the virus though. We don't yet conclusively know what vectors this virus can use to spread.
      - DelightOne 7y ago
        I read on on alot, thank you.
  - chmod775 7y ago
    The concept of "paid sick days" baffles me. It implies that when the doctor says you're too sick to work and hands you a certificate, you won't get paid by default or that it should even be legal to not pay you. No wonder Americans are so reluctant to see the doctor, if both the doctor is expensive and also they won't get paid if they're sick. In most EU countries you are not allowed to work and your employer will get into trouble if he lets you work when you've got a sick cert. Your employer obviously also has to pay you and is not allowed to fire you for getting sick[1]. If this outbreak causes the US to update its workers protections for the 21st century, at least something good will come out of it. [1]: in some countries you can receive a reduction in pay after being sick for X months in a row, usually to ~60%.
    - penagwin 7y ago
      The service industry such as fast food has virtually no "paid sick days", and conveniently are jobs with lots of people interaction, poor pay, and poor if any health insurance. So you "might" have the cold or coronavirus - do you go to the ER (costs hundreds even with insurance) and lose out on your pay? (Not to mention you'll likely have your hours cut as "punishment"). Or do you tough it out and keep making money that you need to pay for your rent?
      - downerending 7y ago
        Once worked for a Wall Street firm that had a "no sick days" policy. I came in every single day, sick as a dog or not, and as far as I can recall, everyone else did, too. It's not just the poor--some of this really just is our (crazy) culture.
        mjevans 7y ago
        If that's the case, make sure you make the coffee / drinks / etc for as many decision makers as possible so they get the gunk from the glass.
    - vageli 7y ago
      As someone who has worked in the service industry as a server, manager, and eventually part-owner, why should we burden the business owner with the responsibility to pay when someone is sick and unable to work? This is compounded by the fact that service industry often requires physical presence, which translates to the business having to pay both the sick worker and the worker's temporary replacement. Doesn't this fall to the government to create some kind of aid? At the very least, the gov could offer a tax break for wages paid sick workers.
  - owenmarshall 7y ago
    It's really fun to think about how Covid-19 will do in a country where the average worker has too few sick days, and where the cultural norm is to "just bear it" and continue working/attending school/being in public even when sick.
  - celticninja 7y ago
    * applies to the US. And less developed nations.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    This is sad, but luckily, a lot of people in our industry can just work from home on sick days (even though, normally, working remote for them wouldn't be an option). On my team specifically (as well as my old team), you would be pretty much turned away and asked to stay home if you were sick, which is something I have come to heavily appreciate.
- jolmg 7y ago
  > sick enough to wear a mask in public As I understand it, the bar is really low on that. If you're coughing or sneezing, you should wear a mask. It doesn't matter if you otherwise feel fine. I don't think it's necessary to stay at home simply because you're sneezing, and I doubt it's a valid excuse to skip work or school.
TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
> They won't filter the air coming in or out, but they'll catch a sneeze and a cough. How can both parts of this statement be true?
- true_religion 7y ago
  Coughs and sneezes are mucous suspended in the air. The face masks don’t stop “true” airborn infections, just ones where the infection vector is mucous.
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  It'll catch most of the large droplets.
  - flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
    Most of the large droplets fall to the ground instantly without a mask anyways, though. It's the aerosolized smaller droplets that travel far and end up infecting others in your vicinity.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  When you sneeze or cough any mucus or other fluids are projected forward and into the inside of the mask. When you exhale, the air pressure in the mask increases and air is forced out the sides. No, these masks are not bio-safety level 4, but they're probably better than nothing. At worst they prevent a portion of your sneeze and cough ejecta from landing on surfaces around you.
stevedewald 7y ago
Visited Tokyo last week. At least 95% of the people were wearing masks. Probably closer to 99%.
- mekster 7y ago
  Way over exaggerating.
- 0xxon 7y ago
  Was in Tokyo last week and this week. Depending on the day my guess was that 40-70% of people were wearing masks - more on public transit. I assume that you mostly were at the Airport or public transit/other huge venues - otherwise I cannot really explain our different experiences.
JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
Makes sense. That highlights the difference between individualistic and collectivist cultures. But if the measurable, scientific benefit of wearing a poorly-fitted mask is minimal at best, masks are pandemic security theater anyways. And I'm unsure if collectivist cultures consider that. Why bother doing something for the group, if the thing has no actual benefit other than appeasement.
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  A minimal increase across an entire population becomes relevant.
mekster 7y ago
You're forgetting that it's a season for the pollens and so many people have allergies against that, many people start wearing masks at this season. But the Corona has pretty much wiped masks off the shelves and those who need are having a hard time getting one.
- paulmd 7y ago
  And of course, much like the drug supply chains, I'm going to assume that masks are largely manufactured in (wait for it) China and factory lines are probably shut down.
  - bsder 7y ago
    Even if they weren't, the whole Just In Time(tm) inventory system will hammer you. Nobody is going to staff up to make more masks because everyone knows that you will make lots of money for a couple months and then the demand will crash afterwards when Coronavirus has passed.
fiblye 7y ago
Yet I see people grab their mask and pull it down to let a huge sneeze or cough out into the open, unprotected, all the time. I’ve even had convenience store workers pull down their mask to cough into their hands right before handing me something. Not to mention guys (not sure about women) pretty much never wash their hands with soap and water after using the toilet. Most train station bathrooms, excluding the Shinkansen stations, don’t even have soap—and I’ve been to plenty of doctor’s offices and restaurants that have no soap in or near their bathrooms. Basic understand of disease spread and hygiene is lacking here. Changing into slippers when entering a building and wearing decorative masks are all about appearances, and that’s what’s most important in Japan. It’s even more evident with that sham of a quarantine on the cruise ship before letting infected people off.
- sneak 7y ago
  I don’t think what you’re describing is specific to Japan. I regularly see all of the unhygienic behaviors you have described in public in Europe and in the US as well.
  - fiblye 7y ago
    Other countries have problems, but they’re not praised for their perceived cleanliness. I’ve also never had trouble finding soap in any other bathrooms, and no soap in the bathrooms of some medical clinics indicates a much deeper problem.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    Idk about Europe, but in my 10+ years in the US, I haven't seen a single bathroom (whether public or in someone's home) that didn't have soap. And that's across both coasts and a bunch of different states.
    - eric-hu 7y ago
      Check out a cash only gas station the next time you need to fill up and ask to use the restroom.
dreamcompiler 7y ago
You're not wrong, but it's more complicated than that. Some Japanese wear them for fashion reasons, just because everybody else is wearing one. Some (usually women) because wearing a mask means you don't have to wear lipstick in public, which means you can get out the door faster in the morning. And a lot of people (wrongly) believe that a mask helps keep you from getting sick. If only the sick wore them you wouldn't see nearly as many as you do on the streets in Tokyo.
dominotw 7y ago
if you sneeze into the mask you walk around rest of the day with a wet mask with phlegm in it? makes no sense to me.

cpeterso 7y ago

If you are sick enough to wear a mask in public, you should probably just stay home.

Raphmedia 7y ago
"According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the average number of paid sick days often corresponds directly with years of service. Here are the averages for workers in private industry: Workers receive 7 sick days per year with 1 to 5 years of service. Workers receive 8 sick days per year with 5 to 10 years of service." + "For colds, most individuals become contagious about a day before cold symptoms develop and remain contagious for about five to seven days." / "If you have the flu, you'll be contagious one day before developing symptoms and up to five to seven days after becoming ill." = One cold would take up all your sick days. By following your recommendation, someone falling sick more than once a year would have to quit their job.
- DelightOne 7y ago
  Doesn't sound nice true. How do you transmit the flu to others without symptoms like sneezing/running nose?
  - chmod775 7y ago
    There exists a metric ton of other possible vectors for viruses to spread. It depends on the virus though. We don't yet conclusively know what vectors this virus can use to spread.
    - DelightOne 7y ago
      I read on on alot, thank you.
- chmod775 7y ago
  The concept of "paid sick days" baffles me. It implies that when the doctor says you're too sick to work and hands you a certificate, you won't get paid by default or that it should even be legal to not pay you. No wonder Americans are so reluctant to see the doctor, if both the doctor is expensive and also they won't get paid if they're sick. In most EU countries you are not allowed to work and your employer will get into trouble if he lets you work when you've got a sick cert. Your employer obviously also has to pay you and is not allowed to fire you for getting sick[1]. If this outbreak causes the US to update its workers protections for the 21st century, at least something good will come out of it. [1]: in some countries you can receive a reduction in pay after being sick for X months in a row, usually to ~60%.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    The service industry such as fast food has virtually no "paid sick days", and conveniently are jobs with lots of people interaction, poor pay, and poor if any health insurance. So you "might" have the cold or coronavirus - do you go to the ER (costs hundreds even with insurance) and lose out on your pay? (Not to mention you'll likely have your hours cut as "punishment"). Or do you tough it out and keep making money that you need to pay for your rent?
    - downerending 7y ago
      Once worked for a Wall Street firm that had a "no sick days" policy. I came in every single day, sick as a dog or not, and as far as I can recall, everyone else did, too. It's not just the poor--some of this really just is our (crazy) culture.
      - mjevans 7y ago
        If that's the case, make sure you make the coffee / drinks / etc for as many decision makers as possible so they get the gunk from the glass.
  - vageli 7y ago
    As someone who has worked in the service industry as a server, manager, and eventually part-owner, why should we burden the business owner with the responsibility to pay when someone is sick and unable to work? This is compounded by the fact that service industry often requires physical presence, which translates to the business having to pay both the sick worker and the worker's temporary replacement. Doesn't this fall to the government to create some kind of aid? At the very least, the gov could offer a tax break for wages paid sick workers.
- owenmarshall 7y ago
  It's really fun to think about how Covid-19 will do in a country where the average worker has too few sick days, and where the cultural norm is to "just bear it" and continue working/attending school/being in public even when sick.
- celticninja 7y ago
  * applies to the US. And less developed nations.
- filoleg 7y ago
  This is sad, but luckily, a lot of people in our industry can just work from home on sick days (even though, normally, working remote for them wouldn't be an option). On my team specifically (as well as my old team), you would be pretty much turned away and asked to stay home if you were sick, which is something I have come to heavily appreciate.
jolmg 7y ago
> sick enough to wear a mask in public As I understand it, the bar is really low on that. If you're coughing or sneezing, you should wear a mask. It doesn't matter if you otherwise feel fine. I don't think it's necessary to stay at home simply because you're sneezing, and I doubt it's a valid excuse to skip work or school.

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago

> They won't filter the air coming in or out, but they'll catch a sneeze and a cough. How can both parts of this statement be true?

true_religion 7y ago
Coughs and sneezes are mucous suspended in the air. The face masks don’t stop “true” airborn infections, just ones where the infection vector is mucous.
Raphmedia 7y ago
It'll catch most of the large droplets.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
  Most of the large droplets fall to the ground instantly without a mask anyways, though. It's the aerosolized smaller droplets that travel far and end up infecting others in your vicinity.
nkrisc 7y ago
When you sneeze or cough any mucus or other fluids are projected forward and into the inside of the mask. When you exhale, the air pressure in the mask increases and air is forced out the sides. No, these masks are not bio-safety level 4, but they're probably better than nothing. At worst they prevent a portion of your sneeze and cough ejecta from landing on surfaces around you.

stevedewald 7y ago

Visited Tokyo last week. At least 95% of the people were wearing masks. Probably closer to 99%.

mekster 7y ago
Way over exaggerating.
0xxon 7y ago
Was in Tokyo last week and this week. Depending on the day my guess was that 40-70% of people were wearing masks - more on public transit. I assume that you mostly were at the Airport or public transit/other huge venues - otherwise I cannot really explain our different experiences.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

Makes sense. That highlights the difference between individualistic and collectivist cultures. But if the measurable, scientific benefit of wearing a poorly-fitted mask is minimal at best, masks are pandemic security theater anyways. And I'm unsure if collectivist cultures consider that. Why bother doing something for the group, if the thing has no actual benefit other than appeasement.

Raphmedia 7y ago
A minimal increase across an entire population becomes relevant.

mekster 7y ago

You're forgetting that it's a season for the pollens and so many people have allergies against that, many people start wearing masks at this season. But the Corona has pretty much wiped masks off the shelves and those who need are having a hard time getting one.

paulmd 7y ago
And of course, much like the drug supply chains, I'm going to assume that masks are largely manufactured in (wait for it) China and factory lines are probably shut down.
- bsder 7y ago
  Even if they weren't, the whole Just In Time(tm) inventory system will hammer you. Nobody is going to staff up to make more masks because everyone knows that you will make lots of money for a couple months and then the demand will crash afterwards when Coronavirus has passed.

fiblye 7y ago

Yet I see people grab their mask and pull it down to let a huge sneeze or cough out into the open, unprotected, all the time. I’ve even had convenience store workers pull down their mask to cough into their hands right before handing me something. Not to mention guys (not sure about women) pretty much never wash their hands with soap and water after using the toilet. Most train station bathrooms, excluding the Shinkansen stations, don’t even have soap—and I’ve been to plenty of doctor’s offices and restaurants that have no soap in or near their bathrooms. Basic understand of disease spread and hygiene is lacking here. Changing into slippers when entering a building and wearing decorative masks are all about appearances, and that’s what’s most important in Japan. It’s even more evident with that sham of a quarantine on the cruise ship before letting infected people off.

sneak 7y ago
I don’t think what you’re describing is specific to Japan. I regularly see all of the unhygienic behaviors you have described in public in Europe and in the US as well.
- fiblye 7y ago
  Other countries have problems, but they’re not praised for their perceived cleanliness. I’ve also never had trouble finding soap in any other bathrooms, and no soap in the bathrooms of some medical clinics indicates a much deeper problem.
- filoleg 7y ago
  Idk about Europe, but in my 10+ years in the US, I haven't seen a single bathroom (whether public or in someone's home) that didn't have soap. And that's across both coasts and a bunch of different states.
  - eric-hu 7y ago
    Check out a cash only gas station the next time you need to fill up and ask to use the restroom.

dreamcompiler 7y ago

You're not wrong, but it's more complicated than that. Some Japanese wear them for fashion reasons, just because everybody else is wearing one. Some (usually women) because wearing a mask means you don't have to wear lipstick in public, which means you can get out the door faster in the morning. And a lot of people (wrongly) believe that a mask helps keep you from getting sick. If only the sick wore them you wouldn't see nearly as many as you do on the streets in Tokyo.

dominotw 7y ago

if you sneeze into the mask you walk around rest of the day with a wet mask with phlegm in it? makes no sense to me.