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I've been working on this problem for a few years now. The problem is systemic. You can solve the retail/consumer level issues but the big problems are market-l

I've been working on this problem for a few years now. The problem is systemic. You can solve the retail/consumer level issues but the big problems are market-level. Here are a few facts often overlooked because they aren't surface-level. - 1.3 billion metric tons (2,866 billion pounds) of food worldwide are produced and not consumed each year, representing approximately one-third of total food production by volume (FAO, 2011). - Most importantly, nearly 40 percent of losses in North American fruits and vegetables occur at the farm and distributor level...before it gets to the consumer. - USDA ERS: "The inelastic nature of fresh produce demand causes prices to fluctuate rapidly due to changes in supply. Prices fluctuate daily and can often cause the value of edible product to drop below the marginal cost of production. Depending on where and when the price fluctuations occur, produce could be left in the field, discarded at a packing shed, or dumped from the back of a truck." - Growers today earn roughly 30 cents for every dollar their products command at the end-customer point. It's a market system problem. It's a middleman problem. It's an incentive problem. It's going to change but it will take time and a willingness to ignore sexy-looking things like Imperfect Produce and the like.

the_watcher 7y ago
Can you clarify how ignoring things like Imperfect Produce helps? I'm open to it, but my impression was that Imperfect emerged simply because there was perfectly edible food being discarded because it looked off (anyone who has lived in an area anywhere near industrial agriculture already knew this due to experience with someone showing up at a soccer game with a bunch of fresh strawberries that looked weird but tasted better than anything at Safeway).
- neaden 7y ago
  My understanding is that Imperfect Produce is, or at least is accused of, taking food that would have been donated to food banks or processed. So those weird looking strawberries were going to be made into Jam, not discarded.
  - zachware 7y ago
    Imperfect created a market for a good that already had a market and generally purchase from post-producer sellers. They aren't large enough to make a dent in the producers' waste. Theoretically it (or something like it) could create a viable market for the food whose cost goes below market price or is not pretty, but it would have to do it at the wholesale level. Not cases of produce but dozens of truckloads a week. In their particular case they are trying to make produce a D2C product so they have two challenges: a) build a market for a good and b) make D2C perishable profitable. For reference on b, see Blue Apron.
    - zachware 7y ago
      USDA: "60% of imperfect produce’s products are sourced from traditional wholesale channels rather than farms."
  - the_watcher 7y ago
    Got it. No idea if those accusations are true or not but that is at least a potentially valid reason to ignore Imperfect as an effective solution to food waste.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  It's a gimmick. If it were meaningful it would cost less than regular, as it already does as non-gimmick farmstands and low-end grocery stores that rich yuppies don't go to.
  - the_watcher 7y ago
    It definitely does in my experience.
- jnwatson 7y ago
  Simply put, the premise of Imperfect Produce is incorrect. Except for some leafy greens (lettuce juice, anyone?), we have useful economic uses for second-tier produce. The food industry isn't dumb. Where do you think all the produce at Asian markets come from?
  - kibibyte 7y ago
    With regards to Asian market produce, I think this is not necessarily always true. It's a mix of second-rate produce and very different (and perhaps very local) supply chains. You can almost think of Asian produce markets as farmers markets. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11981063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11981063 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14248585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14248585.
- sct202 7y ago
  I used Imperfect Produce for a while and I'm not sure if it's actually helping that much. A lot of the produce didn't actually look different and they had a pretty consistent rotation of products which implied to me that it might not be excess. Kind of like how most outlet stores actually plan and manufacturer products specifically for the outlet.
jka 7y ago
Those are some staggering figures. Regarding the 40% loss rate pre-consumer - can you share any details of products and/or distribution methods which are succeeding in reducing that rate?
- zachware 7y ago
  Honestly, not many. It's a marketplace problem. There is always demand somewhere for a product that fits X taxonomy (eg. not perfect or at a lower cost due to market flucutations). The issue is that the market is so gummed up with middlemen that exposing the supply and demand marketwide in real-time is difficult. That's what I've been working to reverse engineer. One of the biggest improvements has come from on-site freeze packaging and the general improvements in cold storage tech. You can either increase the speed of info in the market or decrease the "cost" of lagging info in the form of increasing shelf life. Both reduce waste.
- peapicker 7y ago
  The loss rate isn’t 40%. It says, of the not-mentioned actual loss rate, that 40% of that rate occurs at the farm and distributors.
  - jka 7y ago
    Sigh; I did realize that but didn't phrase the comment clearly enough to ensure a display of understanding. 'Regarding the losses before produce reaches consumers (the 40% mentioned) ...' might have been a little clearer, if a bit unwieldy. The duplicate/misleading use of the word 'rate' at the end of the sentence also added extra confusion. English can be a surprisingly tricky language sometimes :)
vsareto 7y ago
A great example of why a post-scarcity economy will never happen. Only a miraculous invention (Replicators) will ever push production beyond a human consumption demand curve.
ksec 7y ago
Where do you get these numbers and what count as a loss? Because what you are describing is ~50% of our Food produced are lost in the value chain. And being in the food industry I have never heard anything like that. I am assuming they are figures strictly for Fresh produces such as fruit and veg?
ph0rque 7y ago
So what is the solution to this problem?
imgabe 7y ago
Loss is also slack in the system. The alternative might be food shocks when demand is underestimated and we run out of food. That is much much worse than some food getting thrown away. Food shortages are society-destroying levels of bad and some food waste is an acceptable price to pay to avoid them. Until we get matter replicators, I don't think we can have just-in-time inventory for food.
tim333 7y ago
Given the nature of how food is produced - you have a field that grows stuff basically - might not overproduction be a good thing? Better to leave some potatoes in the ground in a good year than let people go hungry in a bad one?

the_watcher 7y ago

Can you clarify how ignoring things like Imperfect Produce helps? I'm open to it, but my impression was that Imperfect emerged simply because there was perfectly edible food being discarded because it looked off (anyone who has lived in an area anywhere near industrial agriculture already knew this due to experience with someone showing up at a soccer game with a bunch of fresh strawberries that looked weird but tasted better than anything at Safeway).

neaden 7y ago
My understanding is that Imperfect Produce is, or at least is accused of, taking food that would have been donated to food banks or processed. So those weird looking strawberries were going to be made into Jam, not discarded.
- zachware 7y ago
  Imperfect created a market for a good that already had a market and generally purchase from post-producer sellers. They aren't large enough to make a dent in the producers' waste. Theoretically it (or something like it) could create a viable market for the food whose cost goes below market price or is not pretty, but it would have to do it at the wholesale level. Not cases of produce but dozens of truckloads a week. In their particular case they are trying to make produce a D2C product so they have two challenges: a) build a market for a good and b) make D2C perishable profitable. For reference on b, see Blue Apron.
  - zachware 7y ago
    USDA: "60% of imperfect produce’s products are sourced from traditional wholesale channels rather than farms."
- the_watcher 7y ago
  Got it. No idea if those accusations are true or not but that is at least a potentially valid reason to ignore Imperfect as an effective solution to food waste.
lonelappde 7y ago
It's a gimmick. If it were meaningful it would cost less than regular, as it already does as non-gimmick farmstands and low-end grocery stores that rich yuppies don't go to.
- the_watcher 7y ago
  It definitely does in my experience.
jnwatson 7y ago
Simply put, the premise of Imperfect Produce is incorrect. Except for some leafy greens (lettuce juice, anyone?), we have useful economic uses for second-tier produce. The food industry isn't dumb. Where do you think all the produce at Asian markets come from?
- kibibyte 7y ago
  With regards to Asian market produce, I think this is not necessarily always true. It's a mix of second-rate produce and very different (and perhaps very local) supply chains. You can almost think of Asian produce markets as farmers markets. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11981063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11981063 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14248585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14248585.
sct202 7y ago
I used Imperfect Produce for a while and I'm not sure if it's actually helping that much. A lot of the produce didn't actually look different and they had a pretty consistent rotation of products which implied to me that it might not be excess. Kind of like how most outlet stores actually plan and manufacturer products specifically for the outlet.

jka 7y ago

Those are some staggering figures. Regarding the 40% loss rate pre-consumer - can you share any details of products and/or distribution methods which are succeeding in reducing that rate?

zachware 7y ago
Honestly, not many. It's a marketplace problem. There is always demand somewhere for a product that fits X taxonomy (eg. not perfect or at a lower cost due to market flucutations). The issue is that the market is so gummed up with middlemen that exposing the supply and demand marketwide in real-time is difficult. That's what I've been working to reverse engineer. One of the biggest improvements has come from on-site freeze packaging and the general improvements in cold storage tech. You can either increase the speed of info in the market or decrease the "cost" of lagging info in the form of increasing shelf life. Both reduce waste.
peapicker 7y ago
The loss rate isn’t 40%. It says, of the not-mentioned actual loss rate, that 40% of that rate occurs at the farm and distributors.
- jka 7y ago
  Sigh; I did realize that but didn't phrase the comment clearly enough to ensure a display of understanding. 'Regarding the losses before produce reaches consumers (the 40% mentioned) ...' might have been a little clearer, if a bit unwieldy. The duplicate/misleading use of the word 'rate' at the end of the sentence also added extra confusion. English can be a surprisingly tricky language sometimes :)

vsareto 7y ago

A great example of why a post-scarcity economy will never happen. Only a miraculous invention (Replicators) will ever push production beyond a human consumption demand curve.

ksec 7y ago

Where do you get these numbers and what count as a loss? Because what you are describing is ~50% of our Food produced are lost in the value chain. And being in the food industry I have never heard anything like that. I am assuming they are figures strictly for Fresh produces such as fruit and veg?

ph0rque 7y ago

So what is the solution to this problem?

imgabe 7y ago

Loss is also slack in the system. The alternative might be food shocks when demand is underestimated and we run out of food. That is much much worse than some food getting thrown away. Food shortages are society-destroying levels of bad and some food waste is an acceptable price to pay to avoid them. Until we get matter replicators, I don't think we can have just-in-time inventory for food.

tim333 7y ago

Given the nature of how food is produced - you have a field that grows stuff basically - might not overproduction be a good thing? Better to leave some potatoes in the ground in a good year than let people go hungry in a bad one?