4 ms·

> "cheap staff" This seems to be the stock response anytime one mentions foreign workers. Who gets to determine what's "cheap"? Look at it from the business' p

> "cheap staff" This seems to be the stock response anytime one mentions foreign workers. Who gets to determine what's "cheap"? Look at it from the business' perspective, perhaps your asks are exorbitant, way too disproportionate to their abilities - salary-gouging by constricting supply - and end-up sinking the business.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Don't fully agree with GP but if a business can only survive by underpaying people and especially expats, which is common in EU tech sector, then that business deserves to sink. Nothing personal with those businesses but some of them (you know who they are) are exploitative and only help to aggravate the ever increasing inequality.
- phenkdo 7y ago
  "underpaying" - as compared to who? Who gets to determine that? It's very easy to scoff at "cheap labor" when in my experience it's far more often than not, the entitled , incompetents (they pair often) who complain. Just because someone feels entitled to a <£ some high number> salary means they are worthy of it. In fact, oftentimes not!
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Simple, the market decides that. If you have a job opening and nobody from the EU applies for your job at your advertised salary then your're underpaying and then arguing in favor of immigration visas in order to fill in your positions means you're exploiting. If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.
    - phenkdo 7y ago
      It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging. I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+<delta> value from hiring someone, that's the core of any business. To use your analogy, if I am trying to rent out a place, and it's basically a tent & a sleeping bag (which in the current job market it is) , I would focus on making it worthy of the asking price or lower my ask.
      - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        You misunderstood, I wan't talking about outsourcing which you're fully allowed to do as you please, but about businesses practicing wage dumping here via shady immigration practices masquerading as a benefit to everyone with good PR.
        phenkdo 7y ago
        What you call "wage dumping" is what I would call wage extortion & salary gouging, borne out of good old entitlement arrogance. Sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander.
        ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        Again, I see no problem with your approach. One country gets a new employer on the market and another country looses one that's focused on race to the bottom. Win-Win. :)
      - collyw 7y ago
        That's fine if your business can survive like that. In my experience outsourced projects (to companies in Sweden for a lot of money, or companies in Ukraine for what I assume is a fair bit less pay) the quality has been pretty poor. Maybe it will work if you are doing something simple, or is very well defined.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

Don't fully agree with GP but if a business can only survive by underpaying people and especially expats, which is common in EU tech sector, then that business deserves to sink. Nothing personal with those businesses but some of them (you know who they are) are exploitative and only help to aggravate the ever increasing inequality.

phenkdo 7y ago
"underpaying" - as compared to who? Who gets to determine that? It's very easy to scoff at "cheap labor" when in my experience it's far more often than not, the entitled , incompetents (they pair often) who complain. Just because someone feels entitled to a <£ some high number> salary means they are worthy of it. In fact, oftentimes not!
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Simple, the market decides that. If you have a job opening and nobody from the EU applies for your job at your advertised salary then your're underpaying and then arguing in favor of immigration visas in order to fill in your positions means you're exploiting. If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.
  - phenkdo 7y ago
    It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging. I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+<delta> value from hiring someone, that's the core of any business. To use your analogy, if I am trying to rent out a place, and it's basically a tent & a sleeping bag (which in the current job market it is) , I would focus on making it worthy of the asking price or lower my ask.
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      You misunderstood, I wan't talking about outsourcing which you're fully allowed to do as you please, but about businesses practicing wage dumping here via shady immigration practices masquerading as a benefit to everyone with good PR.
      - phenkdo 7y ago
        What you call "wage dumping" is what I would call wage extortion & salary gouging, borne out of good old entitlement arrogance. Sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander.
        ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        Again, I see no problem with your approach. One country gets a new employer on the market and another country looses one that's focused on race to the bottom. Win-Win. :)
    - collyw 7y ago
      That's fine if your business can survive like that. In my experience outsourced projects (to companies in Sweden for a lot of money, or companies in Ukraine for what I assume is a fair bit less pay) the quality has been pretty poor. Maybe it will work if you are doing something simple, or is very well defined.