5 ms·

Many non-EU nationals working in the UK, and from those I've spoken with, it will become a bit easier and fairer for them and with that, all non-uk nationals as

by Zenst 7y ago

Many non-EU nationals working in the UK, and from those I've spoken with, it will become a bit easier and fairer for them and with that, all non-uk nationals as a whole. Sure, won't be able to underpay people so easily as they have done with EU nationals and that is a good thing. But I appreciate that cheap staff is always a boon for any company in whatever industry, but that's not fair on the people though really. As for the scare tech founders off aspect, the article seems to slant it's focus upon European ones and that may well be true, more so as the UK will not be part of the EU. Which in effect means that the playing field is fairer for all non-UK nationals as it removes that EU national privilege. But let us see how it pans, and would be great to tag an article for review a year or two later on in which clarity and actualities can replace speculation.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>Sure, won't be able to underpay people so easily as they have done with EU nationals and that is a good thing. What makes you say EU expats were easier target to underpay in contrast to non-EU ones? IMHO from my experience they just try to underpay everyone but have more success with non-EU expats as they have less freedom of movement than the EU one and their visa is tied to an employer in the beginning so their options are much more limited than the EU expats who can work for any company in any EU country.
- Zenst 7y ago
  >What makes you say EU expats were easier target to underpay in contrast to non-EU ones? Easy - EU nationals had the right to work so no visa requirements at all, which would entail having a certain level of salary - now that will apply to all - how can that not be fairer? Though remote workers will always be a thing - especially in tech, so there are always ways around everything.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Don't think your argument holds water. I understand your non-EU expat friends are happy with less competition on the market, but the minimum salary a highly skilled non-EU expat had to have to qualify for visa was in the 36K ball park which is comically low for someone advertised as highly skilled on UK(mostly South of England) CoL. There is no way any highly skilled EU expat would work for less than that to argument that they're responsible for wage dumping. EU expats are avoiding the UK now not because they might not meet the new visa requirements, but because of the insecurity Brexit brought and they have other equally attractive options like BeNeLux, Scandinavia, Switzerland or Germany.
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      I may be misunderstanding, but my interpretation of the other commenter's words was that migrants from the EU who traditionally held low paying jobs would no longer be able to come in to do those jobs. It's not related to the higher paying jobs that those on a skilled worker visa would get. The downside, of course, is that UK businesses will have to pay more for the unskilled labour than they were previously. This, in turn, may make them less competitive against EU companies that have access to low cost unskilled labour.
    - Zenst 7y ago
      Many highly skilled tech workers are not great when it comes to salary negotiations and many look for the opportunities and for some the location appeal. I've worked with EU nationals with some amazing skills beyond their salary level and been on less than 30k a year. Totally agree, why would they want to work here when better opportunities and cheaper living costs, London is darn expensive, as are many parts of the UK. For me Estonia was always the best choice even when the UK was in the EU.
phenkdo 7y ago
> "cheap staff" This seems to be the stock response anytime one mentions foreign workers. Who gets to determine what's "cheap"? Look at it from the business' perspective, perhaps your asks are exorbitant, way too disproportionate to their abilities - salary-gouging by constricting supply - and end-up sinking the business.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Don't fully agree with GP but if a business can only survive by underpaying people and especially expats, which is common in EU tech sector, then that business deserves to sink. Nothing personal with those businesses but some of them (you know who they are) are exploitative and only help to aggravate the ever increasing inequality.
  - phenkdo 7y ago
    "underpaying" - as compared to who? Who gets to determine that? It's very easy to scoff at "cheap labor" when in my experience it's far more often than not, the entitled , incompetents (they pair often) who complain. Just because someone feels entitled to a <£ some high number> salary means they are worthy of it. In fact, oftentimes not!
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      Simple, the market decides that. If you have a job opening and nobody from the EU applies for your job at your advertised salary then your're underpaying and then arguing in favor of immigration visas in order to fill in your positions means you're exploiting. If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.
      - phenkdo 7y ago
        It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging. I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+<delta> value from hiring someone, that's the core of any business. To use your analogy, if I am trying to rent out a place, and it's basically a tent & a sleeping bag (which in the current job market it is) , I would focus on making it worthy of the asking price or lower my ask.
yardie 7y ago
As a former non-EU visa holder that was not my impression at all. Cheap eastern EU nationals is a thing. It's just not a viable thing. What you get is a bunch of EU nationals recruited from Hungary, Rommania, and Poland who will work for your underpaying position for 3-6 months. Then, once they qualify for unemployment benefits they'll leave for a job where the pay is better suited. This underpaying of EU nationals relies on the naivete of EU nationals, but people get wise to whats going on fairly quickly. Finally, the trade works both ways. People weren't just going to the UK for work. They were also being hired and sent their to facilitate trade with other EU members.
- Zenst 7y ago
  From the visa aspect, what is your view upon that with the changes - does the new system seem easier to you for non-EU nationals to actually get a visa?
  - yardie 7y ago
    I think there has been a ratcheting up of visa requirements for all non-UK nationals. The nationalists have successfully quashed immigration from developing countries first, followed by commonwealth countries, and now through Brexit EU countries.

by Zenst 7y ago

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

>Sure, won't be able to underpay people so easily as they have done with EU nationals and that is a good thing. What makes you say EU expats were easier target to underpay in contrast to non-EU ones? IMHO from my experience they just try to underpay everyone but have more success with non-EU expats as they have less freedom of movement than the EU one and their visa is tied to an employer in the beginning so their options are much more limited than the EU expats who can work for any company in any EU country.

Zenst 7y ago
>What makes you say EU expats were easier target to underpay in contrast to non-EU ones? Easy - EU nationals had the right to work so no visa requirements at all, which would entail having a certain level of salary - now that will apply to all - how can that not be fairer? Though remote workers will always be a thing - especially in tech, so there are always ways around everything.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Don't think your argument holds water. I understand your non-EU expat friends are happy with less competition on the market, but the minimum salary a highly skilled non-EU expat had to have to qualify for visa was in the 36K ball park which is comically low for someone advertised as highly skilled on UK(mostly South of England) CoL. There is no way any highly skilled EU expat would work for less than that to argument that they're responsible for wage dumping. EU expats are avoiding the UK now not because they might not meet the new visa requirements, but because of the insecurity Brexit brought and they have other equally attractive options like BeNeLux, Scandinavia, Switzerland or Germany.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    I may be misunderstanding, but my interpretation of the other commenter's words was that migrants from the EU who traditionally held low paying jobs would no longer be able to come in to do those jobs. It's not related to the higher paying jobs that those on a skilled worker visa would get. The downside, of course, is that UK businesses will have to pay more for the unskilled labour than they were previously. This, in turn, may make them less competitive against EU companies that have access to low cost unskilled labour.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Many highly skilled tech workers are not great when it comes to salary negotiations and many look for the opportunities and for some the location appeal. I've worked with EU nationals with some amazing skills beyond their salary level and been on less than 30k a year. Totally agree, why would they want to work here when better opportunities and cheaper living costs, London is darn expensive, as are many parts of the UK. For me Estonia was always the best choice even when the UK was in the EU.

phenkdo 7y ago

> "cheap staff" This seems to be the stock response anytime one mentions foreign workers. Who gets to determine what's "cheap"? Look at it from the business' perspective, perhaps your asks are exorbitant, way too disproportionate to their abilities - salary-gouging by constricting supply - and end-up sinking the business.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Don't fully agree with GP but if a business can only survive by underpaying people and especially expats, which is common in EU tech sector, then that business deserves to sink. Nothing personal with those businesses but some of them (you know who they are) are exploitative and only help to aggravate the ever increasing inequality.
- phenkdo 7y ago
  "underpaying" - as compared to who? Who gets to determine that? It's very easy to scoff at "cheap labor" when in my experience it's far more often than not, the entitled , incompetents (they pair often) who complain. Just because someone feels entitled to a <£ some high number> salary means they are worthy of it. In fact, oftentimes not!
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Simple, the market decides that. If you have a job opening and nobody from the EU applies for your job at your advertised salary then your're underpaying and then arguing in favor of immigration visas in order to fill in your positions means you're exploiting. If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.
    - phenkdo 7y ago
      It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging. I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+<delta> value from hiring someone, that's the core of any business. To use your analogy, if I am trying to rent out a place, and it's basically a tent & a sleeping bag (which in the current job market it is) , I would focus on making it worthy of the asking price or lower my ask.

yardie 7y ago

As a former non-EU visa holder that was not my impression at all. Cheap eastern EU nationals is a thing. It's just not a viable thing. What you get is a bunch of EU nationals recruited from Hungary, Rommania, and Poland who will work for your underpaying position for 3-6 months. Then, once they qualify for unemployment benefits they'll leave for a job where the pay is better suited. This underpaying of EU nationals relies on the naivete of EU nationals, but people get wise to whats going on fairly quickly. Finally, the trade works both ways. People weren't just going to the UK for work. They were also being hired and sent their to facilitate trade with other EU members.

Zenst 7y ago
From the visa aspect, what is your view upon that with the changes - does the new system seem easier to you for non-EU nationals to actually get a visa?
- yardie 7y ago
  I think there has been a ratcheting up of visa requirements for all non-UK nationals. The nationalists have successfully quashed immigration from developing countries first, followed by commonwealth countries, and now through Brexit EU countries.