4 ms·

I haven’t used Elm, but I’ve read that it uses strong typing to distinguish between escaped and non-escaped data. That sounds like a good general solution to th

I haven’t used Elm, but I’ve read that it uses strong typing to distinguish between escaped and non-escaped data. That sounds like a good general solution to the problem, as the compiler will prevent you from using unescaped data in a dangerous context.

chopin 7y ago
I've heard that some Haskell frameworks do this as well. I am heavily using Java's Servlet framework and the blatant spraying of Strings everywhere is astounding in this age. I understand that backwards compatibility is an issue, but one could have set another API beside for optional use and deprecate the current one.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  I imagine all Haskell frameworks do; the ones I've tried surely do. Haskellers are accustomed to mixing string types, since the default String type is inefficient (a linked list of Char) and most import a library to provide immutable ~Pascal strings. And since this is such a common occurrence, the syntax has support form multiple string literal types. An application developer can literally create their own. It's also trivial to create a new type in Haskell that has minimal runtime cost, so it's pretty harmless. I think if you don't have an easy way of creating string literals in the type you want, the developers will at some point reach for the deprecated api, and at that point you're just requiring good hygiene. Which is exactly what you're trying to stop. Language support is critical in being able to get away with this.
  - chopin 7y ago
    >the developers will at some point reach for the deprecated api Agreed, however you can have organizational measures to prevent this (a build time check). And of course a change in the framework must be accompanied by decent conversion libraries (I don't think this is different in Haskell).
nucleardog 7y ago
Any sort of language that allows you to define custom types (e.g., objects) and type-hint parameters allows you to do this. You can accomplish this same thing in PHP even (the type checking is at runtime, but same idea). Types are not restricted to just a description of how the data is represented in the computer, otherwise we would need nothing but primitives. When you perform calculations with physical measurements containing units you don't simply throw away all of the type information while performing calculations -- you perform the same operations on the units both as part of the answer and as an essential check that you've done the right thing. You should do the same thing with your data. See, e.g., https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/05/11/making-wrong-code-look-wrong/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/05/11/making-wrong-code-...
- iainmerrick 7y ago
  You can accomplish this same thing in PHP even Sure, you can, but the key question is, is it typically done in popular frameworks? (Maybe it is! I’m not a PHP user) I should have distinguished between Elm the language and Elm the web framework; I guess it’s really the framework I’m talking about. (the type checking is at runtime, but same idea). That’s not the same at all.
- ashearer 7y ago
  Even the Joel article makes what's arguably a mistake: he says that input from users is "unsafe" and must be escaped on output, while strings from elsewhere shouldn't. That may avoid security exploits, but it still results in incorrect output when a predefined value really does need to be escaped. The issue isn't whether a value originated from the user. It's the units/data type, as you said, such as plain text vs. HTML.

chopin 7y ago

I've heard that some Haskell frameworks do this as well. I am heavily using Java's Servlet framework and the blatant spraying of Strings everywhere is astounding in this age. I understand that backwards compatibility is an issue, but one could have set another API beside for optional use and deprecate the current one.

squiggleblaz 7y ago
I imagine all Haskell frameworks do; the ones I've tried surely do. Haskellers are accustomed to mixing string types, since the default String type is inefficient (a linked list of Char) and most import a library to provide immutable ~Pascal strings. And since this is such a common occurrence, the syntax has support form multiple string literal types. An application developer can literally create their own. It's also trivial to create a new type in Haskell that has minimal runtime cost, so it's pretty harmless. I think if you don't have an easy way of creating string literals in the type you want, the developers will at some point reach for the deprecated api, and at that point you're just requiring good hygiene. Which is exactly what you're trying to stop. Language support is critical in being able to get away with this.
- chopin 7y ago
  >the developers will at some point reach for the deprecated api Agreed, however you can have organizational measures to prevent this (a build time check). And of course a change in the framework must be accompanied by decent conversion libraries (I don't think this is different in Haskell).

nucleardog 7y ago

Any sort of language that allows you to define custom types (e.g., objects) and type-hint parameters allows you to do this. You can accomplish this same thing in PHP even (the type checking is at runtime, but same idea). Types are not restricted to just a description of how the data is represented in the computer, otherwise we would need nothing but primitives. When you perform calculations with physical measurements containing units you don't simply throw away all of the type information while performing calculations -- you perform the same operations on the units both as part of the answer and as an essential check that you've done the right thing. You should do the same thing with your data. See, e.g., https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/05/11/making-wrong-code-look-wrong/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/05/11/making-wrong-code-...

iainmerrick 7y ago
You can accomplish this same thing in PHP even Sure, you can, but the key question is, is it typically done in popular frameworks? (Maybe it is! I’m not a PHP user) I should have distinguished between Elm the language and Elm the web framework; I guess it’s really the framework I’m talking about. (the type checking is at runtime, but same idea). That’s not the same at all.
ashearer 7y ago
Even the Joel article makes what's arguably a mistake: he says that input from users is "unsafe" and must be escaped on output, while strings from elsewhere shouldn't. That may avoid security exploits, but it still results in incorrect output when a predefined value really does need to be escaped. The issue isn't whether a value originated from the user. It's the units/data type, as you said, such as plain text vs. HTML.