4 ms·

Using those languages comes at a tradeoff: the community isn't as a whole likely to know them or want to use them. For example, I'm a pretty prolific TypeScrip

Using those languages comes at a tradeoff: the community isn't as a whole likely to know them or want to use them. For example, I'm a pretty prolific TypeScript developer these days. And I do know Rust and C++ and Java and a bunch of other languages, but I'm unlikely to contribute to JavaScript-ecosystem stuff written in them because the cognitive overhead is too high--the context switching kills me. And while I do know Golang, having to write it makes me want to chuck my computer in a lake and I'll within epsilon of never contribute to a tool written in it. You can swap in whatever languages in whatever slots in the above that you want, and you'll probably cover some chunk of the community. The intersection of all of them is JavaScript (and, for this project, TypeScript). I think that's wise. If you need to optimize certain parts of your runtime or your toolchain once it's correct and does what it's supposed to and you can call the solution set understood, that's one thing. But until it is, defaulting to something that isn't self-hosting is bad for your prospects of community building.

Touche 7y ago
> Using those languages comes at a tradeoff: the community isn't as a whole likely to know them or want to use them. You don't have to use Rust or Go to use a tool written in it.
- eropple 7y ago
  If you read my post, one needs to use them to contribute to them. Past a certain point that matters less; early on, it matters a lot.
  - munificent 7y ago
    This is true, but for a compiler project, I think compiler expertise is a much bigger gating factor than language expertise. If you want to maximize effective contribution, you're probably better off picking a language that lots of compiler hackers know.
    - eropple 7y ago
      There's more to this project than compilers. As an example, I've written custom TSLint plugins before. I'm not writing those in Rust. There's a lot of wisdom in sticking to your lingua franca until you prove you can't.
ar_lan 7y ago
> And while I do know Golang, having to write it makes me want to chuck my computer in a lake and I'll within epsilon of never contribute to a tool written in it. Why this level of hatred for Go?
- eropple 7y ago
  The best way I can describe the way that Golang presents itself to me--and this is probably that from-Google ethos, in that they're writing a language for the legion of post-college Googlers--is "you must write stupid code because we are afraid of you being too clever for yourself". And I would never say that that is an indefensible viewpoint. If I was selecting tools for people who are not me and people who I don't think I can effectively train and coach and lead into being better at what they're ostensibly here to do, I might even advocate for it. But I am not afraid of being too clever for myself. In production capacities, you should be prevented from being too clever by this through the taste that you should have developed as a practitioner of the craft of software development (and your code reviewers should be backing you up on if you don't have that yet). And in exploratory capacities, being too clever should be encouraged--because that's how you become good at your job in the first place. I believe that, instead of throwing up our hands and just stapling a high-cut filter on programming as a craft, one can and should build better systems that actually use the computer to do the tedious tasks involved in making sure that you've actually expressed solutions to problems in a clear and reliable way. Tools that do exactly what I described do exist; along very different axes, both TypeScript (structurally typed and with really flexible and easily expressed generics) and Rust (lower-level borrow-checker B&D but with a raft of niceties to soften the blow; "good C++ with a great IDE" ends up here too, though there's a lot of bad C++ too) scratch exactly that itch for me. Those tools (and others, in greater or lesser measure) reward me for thinking deeply about a problem. My reward is being saddled with less and clearer code to deal with in the future. And that's amazing! On the other hand, I have felt, each and every time I have been stuck using it, that by leaving any questions of difficulty to the programmer to handle a bunch of e-janitor stuff--bad error handling, really embracing its actually-just-Java-1.4-self by not supporting generics, etc.--Golang just wastes my time. I end up with more code that's harder to read and is better able to conceal errors both of omission and commission. Golang punts the solving of the actually hard problems of software craftsmanship to the programmer and I resent that. It should be helping me, not fucking off with the job half-done. Don't get me wrong: I don't begrudge others its use, except when I'm stuck using it because of previous choices made, but it's the only programming language in common use that makes me feel bad to use it. (Which is to say that yeah, there are worse, but I don't exactly have to deal with them.) To me, the repelling effect is strong enough that it really is one of two languages (hi, PHP) on my under-no-circumstances list.

Touche 7y ago

> Using those languages comes at a tradeoff: the community isn't as a whole likely to know them or want to use them. You don't have to use Rust or Go to use a tool written in it.

eropple 7y ago
If you read my post, one needs to use them to contribute to them. Past a certain point that matters less; early on, it matters a lot.
- munificent 7y ago
  This is true, but for a compiler project, I think compiler expertise is a much bigger gating factor than language expertise. If you want to maximize effective contribution, you're probably better off picking a language that lots of compiler hackers know.
  - eropple 7y ago
    There's more to this project than compilers. As an example, I've written custom TSLint plugins before. I'm not writing those in Rust. There's a lot of wisdom in sticking to your lingua franca until you prove you can't.

ar_lan 7y ago

> And while I do know Golang, having to write it makes me want to chuck my computer in a lake and I'll within epsilon of never contribute to a tool written in it. Why this level of hatred for Go?

eropple 7y ago
The best way I can describe the way that Golang presents itself to me--and this is probably that from-Google ethos, in that they're writing a language for the legion of post-college Googlers--is "you must write stupid code because we are afraid of you being too clever for yourself". And I would never say that that is an indefensible viewpoint. If I was selecting tools for people who are not me and people who I don't think I can effectively train and coach and lead into being better at what they're ostensibly here to do, I might even advocate for it. But I am not afraid of being too clever for myself. In production capacities, you should be prevented from being too clever by this through the taste that you should have developed as a practitioner of the craft of software development (and your code reviewers should be backing you up on if you don't have that yet). And in exploratory capacities, being too clever should be encouraged--because that's how you become good at your job in the first place. I believe that, instead of throwing up our hands and just stapling a high-cut filter on programming as a craft, one can and should build better systems that actually use the computer to do the tedious tasks involved in making sure that you've actually expressed solutions to problems in a clear and reliable way. Tools that do exactly what I described do exist; along very different axes, both TypeScript (structurally typed and with really flexible and easily expressed generics) and Rust (lower-level borrow-checker B&D but with a raft of niceties to soften the blow; "good C++ with a great IDE" ends up here too, though there's a lot of bad C++ too) scratch exactly that itch for me. Those tools (and others, in greater or lesser measure) reward me for thinking deeply about a problem. My reward is being saddled with less and clearer code to deal with in the future. And that's amazing! On the other hand, I have felt, each and every time I have been stuck using it, that by leaving any questions of difficulty to the programmer to handle a bunch of e-janitor stuff--bad error handling, really embracing its actually-just-Java-1.4-self by not supporting generics, etc.--Golang just wastes my time. I end up with more code that's harder to read and is better able to conceal errors both of omission and commission. Golang punts the solving of the actually hard problems of software craftsmanship to the programmer and I resent that. It should be helping me, not fucking off with the job half-done. Don't get me wrong: I don't begrudge others its use, except when I'm stuck using it because of previous choices made, but it's the only programming language in common use that makes me feel bad to use it. (Which is to say that yeah, there are worse, but I don't exactly have to deal with them.) To me, the repelling effect is strong enough that it really is one of two languages (hi, PHP) on my under-no-circumstances list.