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I'm one of those sellers who is being forced into Etsy's new ad program. It is frustrating and obnoxious, but I can't say it is surprising given the policy cha

I'm one of those sellers who is being forced into Etsy's new ad program. It is frustrating and obnoxious, but I can't say it is surprising given the policy changes they've been rolling out the past few months. It seems to me that online marketplaces like Etsy find their early success by bringing buyers and sellers together and just letting them do their thing, but as the marketplace becomes more established it's relationship with sellers inevitably turns adversarial. I feel like we need some form of regulation to limit how marketplaces like Etsy can dictate how their sellers conduct business. Amazon has a program that allows "business" customers to place an order and pay the invoice 30 days later. Since Amazon only pays out every 2 weeks, this means I can be made to wait up to 6 weeks to be paid for an order. There is no way to opt out of this and I would be penalized if I refused to ship these orders.

benignslime 7y ago
Have you compared the price to say, hosting your own website, finding your own marketing platform, finding a payment provider, and managing logistical challenges, all for 12% of the gross income of your product? I can see why people would be frustrated, but you're getting a whole lot for using their service.
- MicahKV 7y ago
  I do host my own website and manage all of those things, but it's not a question of the cost it's the fact that I can't opt out. It impairs my ability to predict & control my expenses, and it forces me to subsidize Etsy's ad campaigns that compete directly with my own website.
  - massysett 7y ago
    You can opt out: don’t sell on Etsy.
- Glyptodon 7y ago
  The sad thing is that many successful Etsy sellers do have their own websites and also sell through other platforms besides Etsy. So they have the costs you mention + Etsy costs.
alharith 7y ago
> I feel like we need some form of regulation to limit how marketplaces like Etsy can dictate how their sellers conduct business. I halfway agree, and halfway feel the opposite: We need to restore teeth to our existing regulatory bodies, and we need more competition. We need to reduce barriers to entry, and stop the anti-competitive behavior behemoths like Amazon have been exerting for years now.
faintrain 7y ago
What are your options? 1. Build your own. 2. Collectively organize with other Etsy shop owners to advocate with Etsy leadership. These type of policy changes aren’t a surprise anymore, no? We’ve seen them from Apple, Facebook, Shopify, Twitter, Amazon, EBay, etc for more than a decade now.
- MicahKV 7y ago
  They are not a surprise, no. I have wondered before what marketplace sellers could do in the way or organizing/unionizing.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    A coordinated day where they all pause sales listings, say during an earnings call, might get attention. Especially if you get some financial reporters advance notice. Even if participation is low, some analyst is likely to ask about it in the earnings call.
- Lucadg 7y ago
  Maybe decentralized marketplaces could offer a solution in the long term. This one surely is a serious attempt: https://www.originprotocol.com/ https://www.originprotocol.com/ We are working with them to build an Airbnb alternative but all sorts of marketplaces can be built.
  - hapless 7y ago
    Cool, decentralized lawbreaking as a business. This is better than a centralized criminal syndicate because ????
  - fidelramos 7y ago
    OpenBazaar (https://openbazaar.org/ https://openbazaar.org/) is the pioneer decentralized marketplace, it has been working for years. They recently launched their mobile app, Haven, which makes it very easy to use. From what I read they are gaining traction, and hopefully moves like Etsy's will incentivize people to explore these solutions to censorship and centralized control.
csomar 7y ago
> I feel like we need some form of regulation That's crazy. Etsy is not the market, it is a market. If you don't like it, you move somewhere else. We already have too much regulation that for some fields it's impossible to start a business without jumping through many hoops. Last thing we need is to start regulating on a per-business basis. This is really a case of giving up your store brand/independence for convenience. Starting an online store is not hard these days, everybody should host their own if they are serious about their business.
- rhacker 7y ago
  Probably could have been said better, and there's also probably no need for regulation but at least people should be fighting back. But ultimately the suggestion to build your own is definitely the best move you can make. Etsy will always focus on their own SEO before anyone else's.
  - csomar 7y ago
    > there's also probably no need for regulation but at least people should be fighting back. They can fight back by > But ultimately the suggestion to build your own is definitely the best move you can make.
- glogla 7y ago
  > That's crazy. Etsy is not the market, it is a market. If you don't like it, you move somewhere else. Sufficiently big _a_ thing becomes _the_ thing because of economies of scale, network effects and "the software is eating the world" effects. See Google, Paypal, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, and so on.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    All those companies are well aware that the worse they treat their companies, the more likely competitors will appear. It happens all the time. Big, unstoppable companies become sloppy and complacent, and suddenly find themselves in free fall.
sneak 7y ago
> I'm one of those sellers who is being forced into Etsy's new ad program. How are you being forced?
- PeterisP 7y ago
  They'll be charged 12-15% of the purchase value if Etsy thinks that their buyer clicked on an Etsy-related ad somewhere in the last 30 days.
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  They mean forced if they want to continue using Etsy, right? Or did I misunderstand the intent of your comment.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    That means there is choice, which does not qualify as "forced".
    - skinnymuch 7y ago
      Isn’t that being pedantic? Would any one think a pretty minor private company is forcing some one to do something by setting out rules beforehand? No company forces bad work conditions on their employees either any more. Since you’re always free to leave. I’d think you can use force in cases like that though (IE at least previously some of Amazon warehouse worker issues)
TsomArp 7y ago
In South America we have a similar situation with Mercado Libre (ironically called Free Market in spanish). For example, they started charging 1.5% commission, and by the time they had no competition, they have raised it to 11% or more, which is crazy. They force you to ship things (I only want to sell in person because people then dispute things and keep the orders and the money), etc. But at this point it has gotten so big that it is almost impossible to not be there. You just hope that the next purchase will be not through they.
anonsivalley652 7y ago
Two things: other platforms and your own store. There's a lot of other sizable platforms these days. AliExpress, Jet, eBay, Banggood, Wish, Rakuten and more. And, can you sell a selection of products on those various platforms as teasers to lure customers to more products on your own e-comm? This way, you capture more of the value than give it away to them. You would have to find a way to run your own site/app and do shipping, but that's the trade-offs.
Shivetya 7y ago
So I have to ask, why not move to ebay? Is their fee schedule worse than Etsy? I only buy from ebay and from the buyer perspective I enjoy the protections offered. if Etsy wants to damage their brand than so be it. However there are multiple market places out there and this move by Etsy may be the push people need to look into them or start one. edit: Found a comparison [0] spreadsheet for fees/etc, no comment from me on accuracy but it does show ebay as higher [0] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z9PZDYLzlJe4fRgS85UXC6xZPFFOEMLQe2HFLmtG2fM/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z9PZDYLzlJe4fRgS85UX...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Dahoon 7y ago
>Amazon has a program that allows "business" customers to place an order and pay the invoice 30 days later. That is how it works "in real life" everywhere in the world, so i don't see why Amazon should be any different.
justaguyhere 7y ago
becomes more established it's relationship with sellers inevitably turns adversarial. It is not just the market places though, isn't it? Twitter used developers to grow (generous API limits) then cut them off, tumblr used erotica to grow then started restricting, google allowed certain ads at the beginning then added restrictions... and so on. How much regulation can you put in place for such behavior? Also regulation is expensive, selective and can be rolled back when the next gov comes along. Would be nice to have some kind of decentralized solution for this...

benignslime 7y ago

Have you compared the price to say, hosting your own website, finding your own marketing platform, finding a payment provider, and managing logistical challenges, all for 12% of the gross income of your product? I can see why people would be frustrated, but you're getting a whole lot for using their service.

MicahKV 7y ago
I do host my own website and manage all of those things, but it's not a question of the cost it's the fact that I can't opt out. It impairs my ability to predict & control my expenses, and it forces me to subsidize Etsy's ad campaigns that compete directly with my own website.
- massysett 7y ago
  You can opt out: don’t sell on Etsy.
Glyptodon 7y ago
The sad thing is that many successful Etsy sellers do have their own websites and also sell through other platforms besides Etsy. So they have the costs you mention + Etsy costs.

alharith 7y ago

> I feel like we need some form of regulation to limit how marketplaces like Etsy can dictate how their sellers conduct business. I halfway agree, and halfway feel the opposite: We need to restore teeth to our existing regulatory bodies, and we need more competition. We need to reduce barriers to entry, and stop the anti-competitive behavior behemoths like Amazon have been exerting for years now.

faintrain 7y ago

What are your options? 1. Build your own. 2. Collectively organize with other Etsy shop owners to advocate with Etsy leadership. These type of policy changes aren’t a surprise anymore, no? We’ve seen them from Apple, Facebook, Shopify, Twitter, Amazon, EBay, etc for more than a decade now.

MicahKV 7y ago
They are not a surprise, no. I have wondered before what marketplace sellers could do in the way or organizing/unionizing.
- tyingq 7y ago
  A coordinated day where they all pause sales listings, say during an earnings call, might get attention. Especially if you get some financial reporters advance notice. Even if participation is low, some analyst is likely to ask about it in the earnings call.
Lucadg 7y ago
Maybe decentralized marketplaces could offer a solution in the long term. This one surely is a serious attempt: https://www.originprotocol.com/ https://www.originprotocol.com/ We are working with them to build an Airbnb alternative but all sorts of marketplaces can be built.
- hapless 7y ago
  Cool, decentralized lawbreaking as a business. This is better than a centralized criminal syndicate because ????
- fidelramos 7y ago
  OpenBazaar (https://openbazaar.org/ https://openbazaar.org/) is the pioneer decentralized marketplace, it has been working for years. They recently launched their mobile app, Haven, which makes it very easy to use. From what I read they are gaining traction, and hopefully moves like Etsy's will incentivize people to explore these solutions to censorship and centralized control.

csomar 7y ago

> I feel like we need some form of regulation That's crazy. Etsy is not the market, it is a market. If you don't like it, you move somewhere else. We already have too much regulation that for some fields it's impossible to start a business without jumping through many hoops. Last thing we need is to start regulating on a per-business basis. This is really a case of giving up your store brand/independence for convenience. Starting an online store is not hard these days, everybody should host their own if they are serious about their business.

rhacker 7y ago
Probably could have been said better, and there's also probably no need for regulation but at least people should be fighting back. But ultimately the suggestion to build your own is definitely the best move you can make. Etsy will always focus on their own SEO before anyone else's.
- csomar 7y ago
  > there's also probably no need for regulation but at least people should be fighting back. They can fight back by > But ultimately the suggestion to build your own is definitely the best move you can make.
glogla 7y ago
> That's crazy. Etsy is not the market, it is a market. If you don't like it, you move somewhere else. Sufficiently big _a_ thing becomes _the_ thing because of economies of scale, network effects and "the software is eating the world" effects. See Google, Paypal, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, and so on.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  All those companies are well aware that the worse they treat their companies, the more likely competitors will appear. It happens all the time. Big, unstoppable companies become sloppy and complacent, and suddenly find themselves in free fall.

sneak 7y ago

> I'm one of those sellers who is being forced into Etsy's new ad program. How are you being forced?

PeterisP 7y ago
They'll be charged 12-15% of the purchase value if Etsy thinks that their buyer clicked on an Etsy-related ad somewhere in the last 30 days.
skinnymuch 7y ago
They mean forced if they want to continue using Etsy, right? Or did I misunderstand the intent of your comment.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  That means there is choice, which does not qualify as "forced".
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    Isn’t that being pedantic? Would any one think a pretty minor private company is forcing some one to do something by setting out rules beforehand? No company forces bad work conditions on their employees either any more. Since you’re always free to leave. I’d think you can use force in cases like that though (IE at least previously some of Amazon warehouse worker issues)

TsomArp 7y ago

In South America we have a similar situation with Mercado Libre (ironically called Free Market in spanish). For example, they started charging 1.5% commission, and by the time they had no competition, they have raised it to 11% or more, which is crazy. They force you to ship things (I only want to sell in person because people then dispute things and keep the orders and the money), etc. But at this point it has gotten so big that it is almost impossible to not be there. You just hope that the next purchase will be not through they.

anonsivalley652 7y ago

Two things: other platforms and your own store. There's a lot of other sizable platforms these days. AliExpress, Jet, eBay, Banggood, Wish, Rakuten and more. And, can you sell a selection of products on those various platforms as teasers to lure customers to more products on your own e-comm? This way, you capture more of the value than give it away to them. You would have to find a way to run your own site/app and do shipping, but that's the trade-offs.

Shivetya 7y ago

So I have to ask, why not move to ebay? Is their fee schedule worse than Etsy? I only buy from ebay and from the buyer perspective I enjoy the protections offered. if Etsy wants to damage their brand than so be it. However there are multiple market places out there and this move by Etsy may be the push people need to look into them or start one. edit: Found a comparison [0] spreadsheet for fees/etc, no comment from me on accuracy but it does show ebay as higher [0] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z9PZDYLzlJe4fRgS85UXC6xZPFFOEMLQe2HFLmtG2fM/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z9PZDYLzlJe4fRgS85UX...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Dahoon 7y ago

>Amazon has a program that allows "business" customers to place an order and pay the invoice 30 days later. That is how it works "in real life" everywhere in the world, so i don't see why Amazon should be any different.

justaguyhere 7y ago

becomes more established it's relationship with sellers inevitably turns adversarial. It is not just the market places though, isn't it? Twitter used developers to grow (generous API limits) then cut them off, tumblr used erotica to grow then started restricting, google allowed certain ads at the beginning then added restrictions... and so on. How much regulation can you put in place for such behavior? Also regulation is expensive, selective and can be rolled back when the next gov comes along. Would be nice to have some kind of decentralized solution for this...