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On the one hand, this would be great if it was all opt-in. On the other hand, this is nutty for any business running on low margins or with limited supply (and

On the one hand, this would be great if it was all opt-in. On the other hand, this is nutty for any business running on low margins or with limited supply (and a sufficient customer base that they don’t need advertising to sell out). A lot of small business owners aren’t great at marketing, and having a push button solution is great. Forcing your larger sellers into something that might not even need is borderline predatory. When I clicked through to read their announcement I assumed they’d address some of these concerns, but nope. So, if I run a low margin shop and make 10% on each sale, I’m now underwater by being Etsy.

mreome 7y ago
Especially given that Etsy is supposed to be primarily for hand-made goods. Their top sellers are very likely already selling items at the speed they can make them, why would someone want Etsy to take a cut of their sales for advertising when they can't actually sell more?
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  supposed to be but probably isn't https://www.dailydot.com/irl/etsy-reselling/ https://www.dailydot.com/irl/etsy-reselling/
- adrr 7y ago
  That was the original model but that doesn’t really scale. It’s primarily another channel for mass manufactured stuff that your can find on aliexpress.
  - dawnerd 7y ago
    I got into it with their support over this. They still claim they don't allow those items but when you report it to them they shrug it off. I've written them off completely now. All of these aliexpress, etc dropshippers are ruining all of the retail sites.
  - stuartc842 7y ago
    example of an item that smells like aliexpress to me: 2'x4' painting for $160, ships from china, comes in 6 different sizes https://www.etsy.com/listing/637298037/original-sea-waves-oil-paintings-on https://www.etsy.com/listing/637298037/original-sea-waves-oi...
    - itronitron 7y ago
      I'd put that right in the middle of the 'hotel art' category. They should also advertise it as being stain resistant.
  - iudqnolq 7y ago
    Is there a competitor that still is mostly handmade?
IAmEveryone 7y ago
Etsy shops don't strike me as low-margin. Unless it has drastically changed since I last used it? At least back then, it was for "self-made" and/or creative works. Such products are typically under less competitive pressure because there's no competition for "Aunt Jill's Organic Cotton Socks". I used to deal in high-end organic foodstuffs, and we sold nothing below 50% margin. "Sure, you can by other olive oil for 1/10th of our price. But you can't buy this olive oil"
- mreome 7y ago
  Margins aside, anyone selling hand-made goods has a very limited stock and can't really scale up production. What is the value of this advertising to a seller who is already selling at the rate they can produce goods?
  - IAmEveryone 7y ago
    The value in that case might be the teaching moment when they realise they should have raised prices a long, long time ago.
    - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
      Says who? It's possible that the sellers have goals other than profit maximization. Maybe they're happier simply providing as much supply as they are able at a price that feels fair.
      - tomnipotent 7y ago
        The market? Every other marketplace charges 10-15% - Etsy has been a bargain for years. Even eBay will cost a seller more than Etsy, and no one's complaining about that.
    - stordoff 7y ago
      To what end? They're still at capacity, Etsy take a bigger cut, and they might not be particularly interested in making more money. Some sellers (I suspect especially on a marketplace like Etsy) might be happier making a product _everyone_ can afford to buy.
paxys 7y ago
Well it's a good strategy to nudge mass produced high-volume low-margin goods off your marketplace. And the mom-n-pop ones can always opt out.
- mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
  The system has no opt-out if you've ever gone above $10K in rolling 12 month sales.
  - paxys 7y ago
    How many sellers are doing more business than that though? I figure Etsy has better numbers on that than we can speculate.
    - wccrawford 7y ago
      My mom started selling hand-made jewelry locally, and then started an Etsy account. She started doing them for fun, and then realized she can make a little money at it. A few years later, and I think she just barely qualified for that $10k this last year. So she went from pure hobby to being classed as one of the "biggest sellers" in just a few years. I don't know how many people get to that point, but what she's doing isn't particularly unique. Literally anyone could do it if they have enough control of their hands and enough free time.
    - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
      I'm not sure but the point is that it's WELL within the threshold of "mom n pop".
benignslime 7y ago
> A lot of small business owners aren’t great at marketing, and having a push button solution is great. Is that not what Etsy is demanding users pay for? This platform offers a whole load of things these sellers would have to pay for anyways, all in one place.
stickfigure 7y ago
If you make 10% on each Etsy sale, you need to find a new business. 10% works for large volume retailers or very expensive products, neither of which are really Etsy's forte. Even people selling print-on-demand tshirts have much higher margins than that. TL;DR: The 10%-margin shop doesn't exist; they already went out of business.
- tomnipotent 7y ago
  > The 10%-margin shop doesn't exist; they already went out of business. Exactly, just comes off as crocodile tears to me. This is a red herring and distracts from the real issue of not being able to opt-out of Outside Ads. I'm willing to wager that not allowing opt-out is the only way they can reach a saturated-enough product catalog to make advertising profitable.
hoorayimhelping 7y ago
I left Etsy as a member of the relatively new ads team in mid 2015. We generated a lot of revenue for the company in a very short period of time, but we made sure to make the whole thing feel like Etsy - homegrown, ethical, thoughtful, etc. We made the tools mentioned in this article - the ads console and search ads. It was basically first party promoted listings where you could bid on keywords in the internal site search. We also let sellers opt into ad campaigns run through google and facebook that we helped manage through a console. It was all optional, and it was a decent equalizer for smaller shops, although it was mostly used by large shops iirc. I have no idea what the hell they're thinking with this. This is downright hostile to sellers. I spoke to a nonzero amount of sellers who were against advertising as a concept - they didn't want to be part of that machine (I think quite a few of us here can relate). Now they have no choice but to pay Etsy for this. It's a huge middle finger to the sellers and that made Etsy rich and who Etsy continually takes advantage of. This is mafia-esque style extortion where they say they're doing this for you as they take your money.

mreome 7y ago

Especially given that Etsy is supposed to be primarily for hand-made goods. Their top sellers are very likely already selling items at the speed they can make them, why would someone want Etsy to take a cut of their sales for advertising when they can't actually sell more?

bryanrasmussen 7y ago
supposed to be but probably isn't https://www.dailydot.com/irl/etsy-reselling/ https://www.dailydot.com/irl/etsy-reselling/
adrr 7y ago
That was the original model but that doesn’t really scale. It’s primarily another channel for mass manufactured stuff that your can find on aliexpress.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  I got into it with their support over this. They still claim they don't allow those items but when you report it to them they shrug it off. I've written them off completely now. All of these aliexpress, etc dropshippers are ruining all of the retail sites.
- stuartc842 7y ago
  example of an item that smells like aliexpress to me: 2'x4' painting for $160, ships from china, comes in 6 different sizes https://www.etsy.com/listing/637298037/original-sea-waves-oil-paintings-on https://www.etsy.com/listing/637298037/original-sea-waves-oi...
  - itronitron 7y ago
    I'd put that right in the middle of the 'hotel art' category. They should also advertise it as being stain resistant.
- iudqnolq 7y ago
  Is there a competitor that still is mostly handmade?

IAmEveryone 7y ago

Etsy shops don't strike me as low-margin. Unless it has drastically changed since I last used it? At least back then, it was for "self-made" and/or creative works. Such products are typically under less competitive pressure because there's no competition for "Aunt Jill's Organic Cotton Socks". I used to deal in high-end organic foodstuffs, and we sold nothing below 50% margin. "Sure, you can by other olive oil for 1/10th of our price. But you can't buy this olive oil"

mreome 7y ago
Margins aside, anyone selling hand-made goods has a very limited stock and can't really scale up production. What is the value of this advertising to a seller who is already selling at the rate they can produce goods?
- IAmEveryone 7y ago
  The value in that case might be the teaching moment when they realise they should have raised prices a long, long time ago.
  - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
    Says who? It's possible that the sellers have goals other than profit maximization. Maybe they're happier simply providing as much supply as they are able at a price that feels fair.
    - tomnipotent 7y ago
      The market? Every other marketplace charges 10-15% - Etsy has been a bargain for years. Even eBay will cost a seller more than Etsy, and no one's complaining about that.
  - stordoff 7y ago
    To what end? They're still at capacity, Etsy take a bigger cut, and they might not be particularly interested in making more money. Some sellers (I suspect especially on a marketplace like Etsy) might be happier making a product _everyone_ can afford to buy.

paxys 7y ago

Well it's a good strategy to nudge mass produced high-volume low-margin goods off your marketplace. And the mom-n-pop ones can always opt out.

mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
The system has no opt-out if you've ever gone above $10K in rolling 12 month sales.
- paxys 7y ago
  How many sellers are doing more business than that though? I figure Etsy has better numbers on that than we can speculate.
  - wccrawford 7y ago
    My mom started selling hand-made jewelry locally, and then started an Etsy account. She started doing them for fun, and then realized she can make a little money at it. A few years later, and I think she just barely qualified for that $10k this last year. So she went from pure hobby to being classed as one of the "biggest sellers" in just a few years. I don't know how many people get to that point, but what she's doing isn't particularly unique. Literally anyone could do it if they have enough control of their hands and enough free time.
  - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
    I'm not sure but the point is that it's WELL within the threshold of "mom n pop".

benignslime 7y ago

> A lot of small business owners aren’t great at marketing, and having a push button solution is great. Is that not what Etsy is demanding users pay for? This platform offers a whole load of things these sellers would have to pay for anyways, all in one place.

stickfigure 7y ago

If you make 10% on each Etsy sale, you need to find a new business. 10% works for large volume retailers or very expensive products, neither of which are really Etsy's forte. Even people selling print-on-demand tshirts have much higher margins than that. TL;DR: The 10%-margin shop doesn't exist; they already went out of business.

tomnipotent 7y ago
> The 10%-margin shop doesn't exist; they already went out of business. Exactly, just comes off as crocodile tears to me. This is a red herring and distracts from the real issue of not being able to opt-out of Outside Ads. I'm willing to wager that not allowing opt-out is the only way they can reach a saturated-enough product catalog to make advertising profitable.

hoorayimhelping 7y ago

I left Etsy as a member of the relatively new ads team in mid 2015. We generated a lot of revenue for the company in a very short period of time, but we made sure to make the whole thing feel like Etsy - homegrown, ethical, thoughtful, etc. We made the tools mentioned in this article - the ads console and search ads. It was basically first party promoted listings where you could bid on keywords in the internal site search. We also let sellers opt into ad campaigns run through google and facebook that we helped manage through a console. It was all optional, and it was a decent equalizer for smaller shops, although it was mostly used by large shops iirc. I have no idea what the hell they're thinking with this. This is downright hostile to sellers. I spoke to a nonzero amount of sellers who were against advertising as a concept - they didn't want to be part of that machine (I think quite a few of us here can relate). Now they have no choice but to pay Etsy for this. It's a huge middle finger to the sellers and that made Etsy rich and who Etsy continually takes advantage of. This is mafia-esque style extortion where they say they're doing this for you as they take your money.