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> "unintentional" is a straight up lie based on how software works This is a very dangerous statement to make. Large systems are not like hackathon projects w

> "unintentional" is a straight up lie based on how software works This is a very dangerous statement to make. Large systems are not like hackathon projects where you might understand and hold the entire scope and flow in your mind. Software absolutely can and does lead to unintended outcomes, else there would be no bugs.

not2b 7y ago
Yes, but in this case it is a highly desirable outcome for Facebook. They didn't just get lucky.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Do you really think Facebook profited from this? I'd bet they took a million dollar PR hit if anything.
  - uoaei 7y ago
    Yes, absolutely. It provides a whole new set of connections to improve their view on the IRL social network. It's hard to quantify exactly how much it benefits Facebook but it's not hyperbole to say it contributes positively to everything that makes Facebook money.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
    Did you read the article?
bathtub365 7y ago
You’re saying an entire system was added to integrate with user email accounts, download all their contacts, and upload them to a database at Facebook, accidentally?
- presumably 7y ago
  Please respond to the actual contents of my post, and not a strawman version of it. I’m saying what I said, nothing more. > Software absolutely can and does lead to unintended outcomes, else there would be no bugs. Edit: also see this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22429620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22429620 TFA explains how the system was added, it’s absurd and intellectually dishonest to interpret my post as saying what you wrote.
  - bathtub365 7y ago
    Sorry, so they built a system designed to vacuum up even more personal information and accidentally turned off the screen where they tricked people into giving the information up, leading to it being collected by default?
  - close04 7y ago
    Have you noticed how no feature that brings monetary value to the users is ever accidentally added? I never accidentally received money from these companies, extra storage quota, personalized email address, premium account, etc. And certainly never something that you get to keep once they realize the mistake. The fact that they have such weak controls when it comes to protecting you but such strong controls when it comes to protecting themselves can only be a calculated decision. And the number of precedents of such "mistakes" that are always to their advantage is the proof. It's a mistake only the first time. Knowing they get away with it every time and reap the reward is just an incentive to do it again and again. And people finding excuses and justifying this as being acceptable is one reason they get away with it. They rely on advocates for ignorance and defeatism to make such incidents feel like a banality, "oh well, what can you do", "it could happen to anyone", etc. How many situations would you consider excusable where bad things happen to you because someone "accidentally" removed the step where you were informed what's happening and could say no?
    - dspillett 7y ago
      > I never accidentally ... extra storage quota Raises hand as an example of someone who essentially got a free server upgrade from 500G to 2T storage recently, due to people following a fixed procedure in a slightly unusual circumstance without thinking. "Positive" accidents do happen. People just don't tend to shout about them publicly as much as they do about those with negative consequences or that affect many at the same time. > someone "accidentally" removed the step where you were informed what's happening and could say no In this case I can easily see this accident happen. A junior was told to remove those parts of the UI. That person has little of no knowledge of the back-end and does not have time to dig or think further because they have other work tickets assigned to them to get on with, just did the job and moved on. Facebook may be deliberately shitty a lot of the time, that doesn't mean they aren't sometimes accidentally stupidly shitty too. > would you consider excusable where bad things happen to you because someone "accidentally" Of course this doesn't excuse it, just explains it. There was a fault in the management and/or work review processes. Someone should have had the opportunity to put two and two together and failed to do so. And there should be some fallout. To use a rather extreme analogy: accidentally killing someone through gross ineptitude is still a punishable crime (manslaughter), I would agree that accidentally breaching data collection rules through gross ineptitude should be too (though I doubt the coders/testers dealing with the "UI cleanup" ticket could be said to be responsible).
Barrin92 7y ago
>Large systems are not like hackathon projects where you might understand and hold the entire scope and flow in your mind. I've seen this argument repeatedly now in a defense of Facebook, recently in a twitter thread where a facebook employee in a discussion about hate speech moderation responded along similar lines of "we are simply too large and don't know what's going on in every corner of the system" I find it funny that this is used as a sort of excuse or defense. We can draw another conclusion. Like Goethe's Sorcerer's Apprentice Facebook has lost control over its own machinations and is simply too large.

not2b 7y ago

Yes, but in this case it is a highly desirable outcome for Facebook. They didn't just get lucky.

cameronbrown 7y ago
Do you really think Facebook profited from this? I'd bet they took a million dollar PR hit if anything.
- uoaei 7y ago
  Yes, absolutely. It provides a whole new set of connections to improve their view on the IRL social network. It's hard to quantify exactly how much it benefits Facebook but it's not hyperbole to say it contributes positively to everything that makes Facebook money.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
  Did you read the article?

bathtub365 7y ago

You’re saying an entire system was added to integrate with user email accounts, download all their contacts, and upload them to a database at Facebook, accidentally?

presumably 7y ago
Please respond to the actual contents of my post, and not a strawman version of it. I’m saying what I said, nothing more. > Software absolutely can and does lead to unintended outcomes, else there would be no bugs. Edit: also see this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22429620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22429620 TFA explains how the system was added, it’s absurd and intellectually dishonest to interpret my post as saying what you wrote.
- bathtub365 7y ago
  Sorry, so they built a system designed to vacuum up even more personal information and accidentally turned off the screen where they tricked people into giving the information up, leading to it being collected by default?
- close04 7y ago
  Have you noticed how no feature that brings monetary value to the users is ever accidentally added? I never accidentally received money from these companies, extra storage quota, personalized email address, premium account, etc. And certainly never something that you get to keep once they realize the mistake. The fact that they have such weak controls when it comes to protecting you but such strong controls when it comes to protecting themselves can only be a calculated decision. And the number of precedents of such "mistakes" that are always to their advantage is the proof. It's a mistake only the first time. Knowing they get away with it every time and reap the reward is just an incentive to do it again and again. And people finding excuses and justifying this as being acceptable is one reason they get away with it. They rely on advocates for ignorance and defeatism to make such incidents feel like a banality, "oh well, what can you do", "it could happen to anyone", etc. How many situations would you consider excusable where bad things happen to you because someone "accidentally" removed the step where you were informed what's happening and could say no?
  - dspillett 7y ago
    > I never accidentally ... extra storage quota Raises hand as an example of someone who essentially got a free server upgrade from 500G to 2T storage recently, due to people following a fixed procedure in a slightly unusual circumstance without thinking. "Positive" accidents do happen. People just don't tend to shout about them publicly as much as they do about those with negative consequences or that affect many at the same time. > someone "accidentally" removed the step where you were informed what's happening and could say no In this case I can easily see this accident happen. A junior was told to remove those parts of the UI. That person has little of no knowledge of the back-end and does not have time to dig or think further because they have other work tickets assigned to them to get on with, just did the job and moved on. Facebook may be deliberately shitty a lot of the time, that doesn't mean they aren't sometimes accidentally stupidly shitty too. > would you consider excusable where bad things happen to you because someone "accidentally" Of course this doesn't excuse it, just explains it. There was a fault in the management and/or work review processes. Someone should have had the opportunity to put two and two together and failed to do so. And there should be some fallout. To use a rather extreme analogy: accidentally killing someone through gross ineptitude is still a punishable crime (manslaughter), I would agree that accidentally breaching data collection rules through gross ineptitude should be too (though I doubt the coders/testers dealing with the "UI cleanup" ticket could be said to be responsible).

Barrin92 7y ago

>Large systems are not like hackathon projects where you might understand and hold the entire scope and flow in your mind. I've seen this argument repeatedly now in a defense of Facebook, recently in a twitter thread where a facebook employee in a discussion about hate speech moderation responded along similar lines of "we are simply too large and don't know what's going on in every corner of the system" I find it funny that this is used as a sort of excuse or defense. We can draw another conclusion. Like Goethe's Sorcerer's Apprentice Facebook has lost control over its own machinations and is simply too large.