6 ms·

I questioned the policy of paying people differently based on their location (more specifically, some algorithm's idea of the rent in their area) rather than th

by dvtrn 7y ago

I questioned the policy of paying people differently based on their location (more specifically, some algorithm's idea of the rent in their area) rather than the work they do Interesting, there was a moment maybe a year and a half ago where I wanted to work for Gitlab, but upon learning precisely this I changed my mind. Not necessarily just that pay was location based, but reading through the Global Compensation page just felt very...I dunno, cold and dispassionate? There's probably a better way to phrase the sensation, because I'm certain this wasn't their intent, but the right descriptor eludes me presently.

gherkinnn 7y ago
I’m fine with the location-based pay. Regarding the handbook though, I feel its entirety is cold and dispassionate. Devoid of anything human.
- dvtrn 7y ago
  For me it's a combination of both, I think? -- BEGIN: BIG ASS WALL OF TEXT -- Submitted for your thoughts: I toyed around with their salary calculator. Selected my job role and what I think is an appropriate guess of my own skill level with the options provided. And then I got stuck. Because the "area" (my hometown in the rural southeast US, an economically depressed former mill town) I'm about to buy a house in isn't represented, it's not an option on the list. Neither was the city one county over, a city with a much more productive local economy. In fact, they don't even list the state Capitol, home to a pretty good business school and several engineering schools in the state. The nearest metro area that I could select to even calculate a potential salary is three hours away, separated by a state line with a completely different state tax rate than where I plan to reside. It gets more complicated. The cost of living where I'd like to buy a house is objectively less than this city three hours away, separated by a state line. I know Gitlabbers love to comment and clarify things, so if one of you are reading this I'm curious to know how your salary sabermetrics adjust for this. Then there's the fact that my significant other plan to start a family. If I buy a house in hometown, and I'm paid a lower salary than city three hours away, what's the discussion like if I get hired and two years later I have a child? That's not covered in the Compensation Handbook (if this is mentioned elsewhere in the handbook and I merely missed it, my apologies, I'll redact this complaint). Relocating requires involving a "written agreement" from my manager, and a recalculation of my salary. On the one hand, it's VERY helpful I think to have all this laid out before applying, it's a level of transparency that more companies could stand to emulate, even while I'd say maybe don't emulate every practice employed by Gitlab...but the implementation of various policies just feel robotic, impersonal and quite rigid. Again, I'll take full ownership of my words here if I've missed, or completely misread and misinterpreted aspects of this all, and I completely understand it's within Gitlab's prerogative to structure their company in a way that attracts the types of people for whom these things aren't considerations for their next job. It's just a shame for me personally, because I really like the product and really wanted to be part of solving some of the technical challenges their tools solve, having been a pretty vocal proponent of them in my current dev team.
  - leipert 7y ago
    Interesting. I have worked a bit on our calculator in the past (technical implementation). Some clarifications, best of my knowledge, currently on mobile: It would be impractical to calculate all the location factors in the world, and in your case it would be calculated. I agree with you that this is less than optimal, as it might stop people from applying if that data is missing. So this is an area where we could improve. Internal discussions on the calculator have lead to changes, e.g. https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/3396 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/3396 So the calculator or location factors are also up for discussion and iteration. When you move, higher location factor definitely needs approval, lower doesn’t afaik. To be honest often location changes with a big factor change are across state or country lines, which might mean change of Entities even in Europe. Compare that to a non remote job, if you are bound to an office location: you cannot move. Personally I haven’t been involved in a location change of a team member, but as a manager I would definitely try to enable my team member to move let’s say from Manchester to London if they do wish.
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      Hello there, thanks for the response. It would be impractical to calculate all the location factors in the world On the one hand I absolutely agree with you here, however I searched for multiple cities in the state of consideration, two of them are international destinations on the Atlantic coastline with considerable economic impact to the state and region at large, and as mentioned one of them is the state Capitol with nationally recognized colleges, I'm just a bit surprised that not this city is represented in your calculation. That said, I do hope that area is improved on at least for the sake of other potential applicants. Cheers!
      - alexhutcheson 7y ago
        Did you see that "South Carolina" is an option in the drop-down? It has a value of 0.7, which seems pretty generous: it's higher than New Jersey (0.633), and is the same as Atlanta, Charlotte, and Connecticut (0.7), all of which have higher cost-of-living than most parts of South Carolina. The fact that the urban areas of South Carolina aren't broken out actually seems better for anyone who would plan to live in a rural part of the state. By comparison, "Everywhere else, Georgia", "Everywhere else, North Carolina", and "Everywhere else, Virginia" all have a multiplier of 0.633. This seems to indicate that you'd get paid about ~10.5% more in rural SC than you would in other rural places in the SE.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ilammy 7y ago
  > Handbooks are devoid of anything human. Heh, that's probably by design. Pause for a while and think: this handbook would have been code executed by a soulless machine. And the business is that machine, detached from any humans that are necessarily in it.
a_imho 7y ago
cold and dispassionate I recall them rationalizing how it is beneficial for employees getting payed low salaries, so it does not disrupt their local markets ...

by dvtrn 7y ago

gherkinnn 7y ago

I’m fine with the location-based pay. Regarding the handbook though, I feel its entirety is cold and dispassionate. Devoid of anything human.

dvtrn 7y ago
For me it's a combination of both, I think? -- BEGIN: BIG ASS WALL OF TEXT -- Submitted for your thoughts: I toyed around with their salary calculator. Selected my job role and what I think is an appropriate guess of my own skill level with the options provided. And then I got stuck. Because the "area" (my hometown in the rural southeast US, an economically depressed former mill town) I'm about to buy a house in isn't represented, it's not an option on the list. Neither was the city one county over, a city with a much more productive local economy. In fact, they don't even list the state Capitol, home to a pretty good business school and several engineering schools in the state. The nearest metro area that I could select to even calculate a potential salary is three hours away, separated by a state line with a completely different state tax rate than where I plan to reside. It gets more complicated. The cost of living where I'd like to buy a house is objectively less than this city three hours away, separated by a state line. I know Gitlabbers love to comment and clarify things, so if one of you are reading this I'm curious to know how your salary sabermetrics adjust for this. Then there's the fact that my significant other plan to start a family. If I buy a house in hometown, and I'm paid a lower salary than city three hours away, what's the discussion like if I get hired and two years later I have a child? That's not covered in the Compensation Handbook (if this is mentioned elsewhere in the handbook and I merely missed it, my apologies, I'll redact this complaint). Relocating requires involving a "written agreement" from my manager, and a recalculation of my salary. On the one hand, it's VERY helpful I think to have all this laid out before applying, it's a level of transparency that more companies could stand to emulate, even while I'd say maybe don't emulate every practice employed by Gitlab...but the implementation of various policies just feel robotic, impersonal and quite rigid. Again, I'll take full ownership of my words here if I've missed, or completely misread and misinterpreted aspects of this all, and I completely understand it's within Gitlab's prerogative to structure their company in a way that attracts the types of people for whom these things aren't considerations for their next job. It's just a shame for me personally, because I really like the product and really wanted to be part of solving some of the technical challenges their tools solve, having been a pretty vocal proponent of them in my current dev team.
- leipert 7y ago
  Interesting. I have worked a bit on our calculator in the past (technical implementation). Some clarifications, best of my knowledge, currently on mobile: It would be impractical to calculate all the location factors in the world, and in your case it would be calculated. I agree with you that this is less than optimal, as it might stop people from applying if that data is missing. So this is an area where we could improve. Internal discussions on the calculator have lead to changes, e.g. https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/3396 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/3396 So the calculator or location factors are also up for discussion and iteration. When you move, higher location factor definitely needs approval, lower doesn’t afaik. To be honest often location changes with a big factor change are across state or country lines, which might mean change of Entities even in Europe. Compare that to a non remote job, if you are bound to an office location: you cannot move. Personally I haven’t been involved in a location change of a team member, but as a manager I would definitely try to enable my team member to move let’s say from Manchester to London if they do wish.
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    Hello there, thanks for the response. It would be impractical to calculate all the location factors in the world On the one hand I absolutely agree with you here, however I searched for multiple cities in the state of consideration, two of them are international destinations on the Atlantic coastline with considerable economic impact to the state and region at large, and as mentioned one of them is the state Capitol with nationally recognized colleges, I'm just a bit surprised that not this city is represented in your calculation. That said, I do hope that area is improved on at least for the sake of other potential applicants. Cheers!
    - alexhutcheson 7y ago
      Did you see that "South Carolina" is an option in the drop-down? It has a value of 0.7, which seems pretty generous: it's higher than New Jersey (0.633), and is the same as Atlanta, Charlotte, and Connecticut (0.7), all of which have higher cost-of-living than most parts of South Carolina. The fact that the urban areas of South Carolina aren't broken out actually seems better for anyone who would plan to live in a rural part of the state. By comparison, "Everywhere else, Georgia", "Everywhere else, North Carolina", and "Everywhere else, Virginia" all have a multiplier of 0.633. This seems to indicate that you'd get paid about ~10.5% more in rural SC than you would in other rural places in the SE.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ilammy 7y ago
> Handbooks are devoid of anything human. Heh, that's probably by design. Pause for a while and think: this handbook would have been code executed by a soulless machine. And the business is that machine, detached from any humans that are necessarily in it.

a_imho 7y ago

cold and dispassionate I recall them rationalizing how it is beneficial for employees getting payed low salaries, so it does not disrupt their local markets ...