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If you were forced to design an exceptional access system that minimized abuses and risks of compromise, how would you do it?
by dropoutcoder 7y ago
If you were forced to design an exceptional access system that minimized abuses and risks of compromise, how would you do it?
- JoshTriplett 7y agoLeave whatever jurisdiction was attempting to force me to build something unethical, and after being safely out of that jurisdiction, disclose absolutely everything I can about the attempted coercion.
- dropoutcoder 7y agoIn that case you would not be forced, at least in a more extreme application of the word. Regarding ethics, my opinion is that it’s unethical to offer strong E2EE to the masses at scale, without considering the needs of LE.
- unionpivo 7y agoAs someone from ex comunist/socialist state, I am completely fine with LE not having too much power. I think them being able to break all encryption in use is way too much power. Its not if, it's when it will be abused, and how many people die for it. And LE's can do a lot more damage than all terrorist combined.
- dropoutcoder 7y agoThanks for that. The goal is to design a system that prevents abuses. A technological solution to the ape problem would be helpful.
- JoshTriplett 7y agoCurrent systems prevent most abuses, and many people are working on improving it to prevent more abuses. As an excellent example, Certificate Transparency has almost completely mitigated the potential abuse of compromising a certificate authority and using it to MITM traffic. Similarly, "binary transparency" or "software transparency" will hopefully eliminate the abuse of delivering a "special binary" to just one person that others have not received. Part of the threat model is the belief that any system with a backdoor has any hope of "preventing abuses". The backdoor is the abuse, leaving aside all the misuses of it that will happen.
- dropoutcoder 7y agoMinimize or eliminate misuse through fundamental rethink of the solution.
- tbyehl 7y agoWhy should Law Enforcement have a seat at the table in the design of anything? Should my sneakers be made more uncomfortable so I can't run away too fast? Should they be able to remotely disable my car? Remotely open the blinds to my home's windows? Should I not be able to install a front door that resists attempts at forced entry? What's the line where Law Enforcement's wants merit consideration?
- dropoutcoder 7y agoIf it comes to pass that the department of justice insists on implementation of Exceptional access it would be who’ve the civil libertarians to work towards a better compromise. Hedge your bets.
- tbyehl 7y agoSo, I failed to actually state what I was trying to probe from you: Why do you view it as unethical to not consider Law Enforcement needs wrt strong end-to-end encryption?
- dropoutcoder 7y agoHaving exceptional access is important to keeping and improving society. It’s unethical to ignore and fight LE’s ongoing needs regarding such access. E2EE at scale, unchecked, is an extreme viewpoint with trade offs that I consider unethical at best, and fundamentally dangerous at worst.
- JoshTriplett 7y agoYou haven't explained why, you're just re-asserting what the comment you replied to was expecting you to explain.
- dropoutcoder 7y agoI did
- CKN23-ARIN 7y agoLE in which jurisdiction(s)? If the E2EE is widely used, the "needs" of local LE will be varied and often contradictory.
- JoshTriplett 7y agoThis is one of many excellent arguments against such backdoors. The US would like backdoors into everyone's communications, and doesn't want anyone else to have them. China would like backdoors into everyone's communications, and doesn't want anyone else to have them. Every country and jurisdiction would like backdoors into everyone's communications, and doesn't want anyone else to have them.
- dropoutcoder 7y agoIn America, our govt
- alasdair_ 7y agoIt depends on whether the access is to be to encrypted data at rest or something like a realtime wiretap, and if there needs to be a way to prevent the spied-on party knowing they were being spied on or not. One way to do data-at-rest (e.g. a locked phone) is to require physical access to the phone along with some kind of expensive, destructive procedure (e.g. an electron tunneling microscope and shaving away the housing of the secure enclave area). Also, I'd assume that any competent target would just layer their own encryption on top of the existing stuff, so the whole system would only be good for catching unsophisticated criminals (and spying on the general public). Or I'd just subpoena the iCloud backups and have Apple decrypt them, which they can already do.
- dropoutcoder 7y agoFor clarification, the goal is to provide a way for the government to decrypt encrypted comms that pass through the internet.
- banads 7y agoThis is like asking how to design a type of water that isn't wet, fire that doesn't burn, or a gun that only kills bad guys. The inherent nature of encryption is to keep information secret.
- dropoutcoder 7y agoTwo parties or three, how can three parties keep a secret versus two
- banads 7y agoThe only way is to share keys
- dropoutcoder 7y agoCurrently but maybe there’s another way Too much at stake Balance of power God bless America I’m concerned Programmer geniuses often can’t see the forest for the trees This one issue will have a profound impact on our ability to work towards a more civil society Hopeful that the geniuses will be willing to work towards a better compromise rather than simply resist on theoretical principles
- banads 7y ago>Programmer geniuses often can’t see the forest for the trees Indeed, this is true. Likewise politicians often know nothing of how trees and forests actually work; and make absurd proposals which primarily serve their interests and pretend to care about a saving a few trees while endagering the entire forest. Weakening everyone's security in order to weaken a small minority of criminals' security by default results in a net decrease in society's overall security