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The formal learning environment and external motivation to learn (exams, projects) helped me learn a lot about computer science as well as many other subjects.

The formal learning environment and external motivation to learn (exams, projects) helped me learn a lot about computer science as well as many other subjects. I'd do it again, even in the internet age. That being said, the internet has been an incredible resouce for my continuing education. It's more than just a way to look up javadocs, I've gained more breadth to my knowledge than books or classes could offer. It's the combination of the university and internet 'courses' that have propelled my abilities like never before.

jey 18y ago
I had the opposite experience: the formal education system systematically and carefully sucked out the beauty of the subject and replaced it with boring monotonous busy work. I wish someone would've just stopped me from going to college altogether instead of having to suffer for two years before realizing that self-study was far better for me. Obviously school works for the vast majority of people, but I wish there wasn't such a prejudice against self-directed study. Right now society doesn't even admit that self-study could possibly work, they just tell you that it's a path to guaranteed failure. There was one significant gap in my skillset that I can directly blame on being self-taught through Wikipedia and other web resources: I didn't know how to take a textbook and systematically study from it. I was too used to jumping around or starting from some thing-to-learn and just reading the specific concepts it depends on. This works great when you're studying subjects that are well-covered by online resources or looking up reference information, but it really falls short for more advanced or esoteric topics. Over the last few months I've been consciously trying to develop the ability to study from a textbook and I've been getting better.
- calpaterson 18y ago
  I self taught high school this year. I think you're mistaken to paint it as white as you do, but I do prefer it to school in some ways. That said, I am going to university.
- oz 18y ago
  Amen. I remember loving math at age 12 (grade 7 here in Jamaica), and hating it up to recently. I honestly don't know how I passed my high school exams. I got the lowest grade you could pass with. I started a CS degree at the University of Technology in Jamaica in August 2005. We had to take an aptitude test to get in, which included some math. I passed, not because I understood the math, but because I could reason things well. I started programming (in Python) at age 14 or so, and knew I was good at it. What bothered me at Uni was that I knew somewhere that I was good at math, because I understood programming. I actually told my classmates so. We had PreCalculus in the first semester. I failed of course; I'd stopped attending classes and took the time to learn some things from scratch. I actually picked leaves and played with them till understood how number systems, basic operations, fractions and exponents work! I was working out of an American elementary school textbook. My friends thought I was crazy, but I knew, somewhere, that I was right. During the summer after year 1, I got offered a job by a man working as technical consultant to a telecommunications startup. I went to his house the Sunday afternoon, and Monday morning I reported to work, in the only 'work clothes' I had. When the summer was up, I stayed on. The pay sucked, but I would have done ANYTHING not to go back to school. Luckily, the man who had hired me was also 'anti-school.' He knew his telecoms well; self taught. My parents, naturally, wanted me to go to school, but they didn't push me, knowing I can be quite...strong-minded. It was at that job I first realized just how good I was. Within a few months, I was conducting interviews for the IT department. I interviewed university grads, and most of them didn't even come close. I remember asking one of them about the Nyquist Theorem (which I knew only cursorily). I swear he nearly jumped out of the chair! I was obviously younger than he, and asking advanced questions. I loved it. What I discovered about myself at that job was that I TRULY love to learn! Most people just. dont. care. They only want to know that they pass the exams. They don't have that child-like curiosity about how things work. I didn't have a computer at the time, so I stayed at work till 11pm most nights, just reading online books, whitepapers and tutorials. I was walking lonely streets to get to the taxi stand after work, but I didn't care. I was learning. Safety second. On some nights, I'd call a cab to take me home, which cost the equivalent of $5USD. We were paid weekly-the equivalent of about $60USD. But I didn't care. I was learning, and loving it. In the past few months, I've experienced what can best be described as a 'creative awakening' (insert moving music here). I've started writing and drawing again, and am actually starting out in graphic design. I'm listening to more classical music and operas, and listening to less rap, dancehall and reggae. I came across Lockhart's Lament, and it rang so true that I had to put it down a few times. Vindication tastes good; you can believe that. Lockhart makes the point that mathematics is a creative endeavor like any other. I remember always wondering why the quadratic equation equaled 0. Why not 543.98? I didn't understand what exactly they were trying to accomplish. A few months ago, before my 'creative awakening,' (sounds esoteric, doesn't it) I started spending my days at the library. (I was fired from the job, a few months before the entire group of companies crashed, the CEO is now on bail, go figure). I came across a book about the history of Mathematics, from the Egyptians and Babylonians to Hero of Greece,and his postulate that all lines are equal since they have corresponding points(Google it). It then talked about the Hindus. Turns out, they have to build their altars with specific proportions, and developed quadratics as a means to that end. I was furious. Why hadn't I been taught this at 15? But I was also delighted: I'd always felt that many of those who got good grades in Maths class didn't really understand it, they could only apply formulas to specific exercises. I felt that I was now in an exclusive club. I haven't visited the library since that day; got distracted, you see (you know how nerds are). But this is why Lockhart's Lament rang so true. He's also not the only one to criticize contemporary Math education. Google "Morris Kline" who's written books on the subject. Richard Feynman also wrote on just how abominably bad most textbooks are. Damn, is it 8:55 PM already? I'm actually at a friends house; I came to get me some cake and icecream.
- mark_h 18y ago
  I actually empathise with both arguments. I did my undergrad study "by the book", getting good grades but never investigating beyond what was required. Then I decided to do postgrad at the very last minute, in a fairly different field, and a whole different world opened up: suddenly I was spending ages learning about whole new branches (usually unrelated to my topic) and loving it. That period basically shaped my current career (I usually say that I did a Phd, and I wrote a thesis, and the two weren't really related). In the middle of postgrad I started lecturing, and I (somewhat hypocritically) started getting really frustrated with students who weren't interested in anything beyond the exam, particularly as I watched the curriculum get watered down to basic vocational training. I don't really have a point out of this, except that I believe it's still possible to get a lot out of university, but only if you consider it a place of learning instead of a place of teaching. You probably won't be taught much (at least where I am), but there's still plenty of smart people there who would love to help you past the edges of the official curriculum.
- pohart 18y ago
  I think you went to the wrong school. you should not have been doing boring monotonous busywork in any program at ANY college/university. I double majored in Economics and Computer Science, and was one credit away from a math major as well. The busy work that I did was limited to a single 400 level Economics course. The course was required for business majors, and apparently business majors at SUNY Albany were unable to perform arithmetic or even perform simple substitutions into formulas without a disgusting amount of hand holding. Other than that my education was busy work free.

jey 18y ago

I had the opposite experience: the formal education system systematically and carefully sucked out the beauty of the subject and replaced it with boring monotonous busy work. I wish someone would've just stopped me from going to college altogether instead of having to suffer for two years before realizing that self-study was far better for me. Obviously school works for the vast majority of people, but I wish there wasn't such a prejudice against self-directed study. Right now society doesn't even admit that self-study could possibly work, they just tell you that it's a path to guaranteed failure. There was one significant gap in my skillset that I can directly blame on being self-taught through Wikipedia and other web resources: I didn't know how to take a textbook and systematically study from it. I was too used to jumping around or starting from some thing-to-learn and just reading the specific concepts it depends on. This works great when you're studying subjects that are well-covered by online resources or looking up reference information, but it really falls short for more advanced or esoteric topics. Over the last few months I've been consciously trying to develop the ability to study from a textbook and I've been getting better.

calpaterson 18y ago
I self taught high school this year. I think you're mistaken to paint it as white as you do, but I do prefer it to school in some ways. That said, I am going to university.
oz 18y ago
Amen. I remember loving math at age 12 (grade 7 here in Jamaica), and hating it up to recently. I honestly don't know how I passed my high school exams. I got the lowest grade you could pass with. I started a CS degree at the University of Technology in Jamaica in August 2005. We had to take an aptitude test to get in, which included some math. I passed, not because I understood the math, but because I could reason things well. I started programming (in Python) at age 14 or so, and knew I was good at it. What bothered me at Uni was that I knew somewhere that I was good at math, because I understood programming. I actually told my classmates so. We had PreCalculus in the first semester. I failed of course; I'd stopped attending classes and took the time to learn some things from scratch. I actually picked leaves and played with them till understood how number systems, basic operations, fractions and exponents work! I was working out of an American elementary school textbook. My friends thought I was crazy, but I knew, somewhere, that I was right. During the summer after year 1, I got offered a job by a man working as technical consultant to a telecommunications startup. I went to his house the Sunday afternoon, and Monday morning I reported to work, in the only 'work clothes' I had. When the summer was up, I stayed on. The pay sucked, but I would have done ANYTHING not to go back to school. Luckily, the man who had hired me was also 'anti-school.' He knew his telecoms well; self taught. My parents, naturally, wanted me to go to school, but they didn't push me, knowing I can be quite...strong-minded. It was at that job I first realized just how good I was. Within a few months, I was conducting interviews for the IT department. I interviewed university grads, and most of them didn't even come close. I remember asking one of them about the Nyquist Theorem (which I knew only cursorily). I swear he nearly jumped out of the chair! I was obviously younger than he, and asking advanced questions. I loved it. What I discovered about myself at that job was that I TRULY love to learn! Most people just. dont. care. They only want to know that they pass the exams. They don't have that child-like curiosity about how things work. I didn't have a computer at the time, so I stayed at work till 11pm most nights, just reading online books, whitepapers and tutorials. I was walking lonely streets to get to the taxi stand after work, but I didn't care. I was learning. Safety second. On some nights, I'd call a cab to take me home, which cost the equivalent of $5USD. We were paid weekly-the equivalent of about $60USD. But I didn't care. I was learning, and loving it. In the past few months, I've experienced what can best be described as a 'creative awakening' (insert moving music here). I've started writing and drawing again, and am actually starting out in graphic design. I'm listening to more classical music and operas, and listening to less rap, dancehall and reggae. I came across Lockhart's Lament, and it rang so true that I had to put it down a few times. Vindication tastes good; you can believe that. Lockhart makes the point that mathematics is a creative endeavor like any other. I remember always wondering why the quadratic equation equaled 0. Why not 543.98? I didn't understand what exactly they were trying to accomplish. A few months ago, before my 'creative awakening,' (sounds esoteric, doesn't it) I started spending my days at the library. (I was fired from the job, a few months before the entire group of companies crashed, the CEO is now on bail, go figure). I came across a book about the history of Mathematics, from the Egyptians and Babylonians to Hero of Greece,and his postulate that all lines are equal since they have corresponding points(Google it). It then talked about the Hindus. Turns out, they have to build their altars with specific proportions, and developed quadratics as a means to that end. I was furious. Why hadn't I been taught this at 15? But I was also delighted: I'd always felt that many of those who got good grades in Maths class didn't really understand it, they could only apply formulas to specific exercises. I felt that I was now in an exclusive club. I haven't visited the library since that day; got distracted, you see (you know how nerds are). But this is why Lockhart's Lament rang so true. He's also not the only one to criticize contemporary Math education. Google "Morris Kline" who's written books on the subject. Richard Feynman also wrote on just how abominably bad most textbooks are. Damn, is it 8:55 PM already? I'm actually at a friends house; I came to get me some cake and icecream.
mark_h 18y ago
I actually empathise with both arguments. I did my undergrad study "by the book", getting good grades but never investigating beyond what was required. Then I decided to do postgrad at the very last minute, in a fairly different field, and a whole different world opened up: suddenly I was spending ages learning about whole new branches (usually unrelated to my topic) and loving it. That period basically shaped my current career (I usually say that I did a Phd, and I wrote a thesis, and the two weren't really related). In the middle of postgrad I started lecturing, and I (somewhat hypocritically) started getting really frustrated with students who weren't interested in anything beyond the exam, particularly as I watched the curriculum get watered down to basic vocational training. I don't really have a point out of this, except that I believe it's still possible to get a lot out of university, but only if you consider it a place of learning instead of a place of teaching. You probably won't be taught much (at least where I am), but there's still plenty of smart people there who would love to help you past the edges of the official curriculum.
pohart 18y ago
I think you went to the wrong school. you should not have been doing boring monotonous busywork in any program at ANY college/university. I double majored in Economics and Computer Science, and was one credit away from a math major as well. The busy work that I did was limited to a single 400 level Economics course. The course was required for business majors, and apparently business majors at SUNY Albany were unable to perform arithmetic or even perform simple substitutions into formulas without a disgusting amount of hand holding. Other than that my education was busy work free.