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It's not clear to me how any of these would improve things. Not saying they wouldn't, just saying I don't see it right off. What does flagging do? Remove a pos

by bugsy 16y ago

It's not clear to me how any of these would improve things. Not saying they wouldn't, just saying I don't see it right off. What does flagging do? Remove a post? What would more of it accomplish? What are some sample posts on which it would be used? Are the dangers that such a mechanism would be used to punish unpopular opinions, or even punish correct statements when the consensus is wrong?

tptacek 16y ago
If you're saying you don't see an S/N problem on HN right now, that's a totally valid opinion, but you should express it directly. As it is, I can't tease apart from this comment whether you're saying "things are fine" or "these features won't help with the problem I, too, see".
- djcapelis 16y ago
  I'm not the poster you asked, but I think I agree with him and interpreted his post as a rejection of the proposed solutions, not a rejection of the assertion of a problem. Having only been here about 500 days, I'm newish, but it seems like quality is degrading. I don't see why your solutions would fix that. The only thing I can think of that might be interesting to examine is advogato's model. In the end, it's a hard problem. People want to hang out and discuss news items with all their friends, not just the ones we wish they'd bring around to show up.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    I buy Joel Spolsky's take on this, which is that there are software features that improve communities and software features that degrade communities. They may not be the sole determinants of community quality, but they exist. Do you think Hacker News has identified all of the low-hanging fruit already, or do you disagree with Joel Spolsky on this point? (Or is there a third option I'm missing?)
    - djcapelis 16y ago
      I agree that better features field better community, I only disagree with all the features listed in the poll. I don't have a better concise idea right now, but I will think about it sometime I am not waiting in a foreign airport and see if there's something I can suggest.
- bugsy 16y ago
  I did not say there was not a S/N problem and that was not the focus of my comment. The comment "if you're saying" when I wasn't feels a lot like an attempt to discredit a comment by reframing the debate by assigning statements of intent to a post that clearly are not there. I hope that is not the case as such tactics are not productive. My comment is that I read the proposals in the form of a poll and do not see what they are expected to do to solve problems. Perhaps more explanation of their expected virtues is in order. I asked about one in particular as an example, the flag. I know flagging from youtube, it is used much for erotic and violent content which after being reviewed manually by employees of youtube (which undoubtedly has significant labor costs) has a warning label assigned and age sign-in or click through added. Perhaps it means the same thing here. If so it's not clear what sorts of posts it would be used on since I have not seen violent or erotic posts here, or even spam. So that is why I asked how does it work and please give some examples of actual posts is should be used on. Also discuss how introducing new punishment features will not have unintended consequences. A discussion of these sorts of things should precede any vote on what actions to take, that's how they do it in various congresses and parliaments. (Regarding the other topic, I don't know if there is a S/N problem or not. There are different kinds of posts than there were a year ago. There are more people here and different people. This is not what my comment was addressing at all though. I assume as a starting point that there is a problem with wrong posts and here are some proposals to solve it. I don't know if that is the case but I am assuming it to move on and discuss proposed changes to the board. The question I had was how will these solve the problem. The mechanisms of how these would work to improve things is no doubt clear to the OP, but is not obvious to me. Then again, since we are being asked to rank them, perhaps it is not so obvious even to the OP. If it is very obvious and clear to all we would just be told these should be implemented, and not asked which ones we have a gut feeling might work.)

by bugsy 16y ago

tptacek 16y ago

If you're saying you don't see an S/N problem on HN right now, that's a totally valid opinion, but you should express it directly. As it is, I can't tease apart from this comment whether you're saying "things are fine" or "these features won't help with the problem I, too, see".

djcapelis 16y ago
I'm not the poster you asked, but I think I agree with him and interpreted his post as a rejection of the proposed solutions, not a rejection of the assertion of a problem. Having only been here about 500 days, I'm newish, but it seems like quality is degrading. I don't see why your solutions would fix that. The only thing I can think of that might be interesting to examine is advogato's model. In the end, it's a hard problem. People want to hang out and discuss news items with all their friends, not just the ones we wish they'd bring around to show up.
- tptacek 16y ago
  I buy Joel Spolsky's take on this, which is that there are software features that improve communities and software features that degrade communities. They may not be the sole determinants of community quality, but they exist. Do you think Hacker News has identified all of the low-hanging fruit already, or do you disagree with Joel Spolsky on this point? (Or is there a third option I'm missing?)
  - djcapelis 16y ago
    I agree that better features field better community, I only disagree with all the features listed in the poll. I don't have a better concise idea right now, but I will think about it sometime I am not waiting in a foreign airport and see if there's something I can suggest.
bugsy 16y ago
I did not say there was not a S/N problem and that was not the focus of my comment. The comment "if you're saying" when I wasn't feels a lot like an attempt to discredit a comment by reframing the debate by assigning statements of intent to a post that clearly are not there. I hope that is not the case as such tactics are not productive. My comment is that I read the proposals in the form of a poll and do not see what they are expected to do to solve problems. Perhaps more explanation of their expected virtues is in order. I asked about one in particular as an example, the flag. I know flagging from youtube, it is used much for erotic and violent content which after being reviewed manually by employees of youtube (which undoubtedly has significant labor costs) has a warning label assigned and age sign-in or click through added. Perhaps it means the same thing here. If so it's not clear what sorts of posts it would be used on since I have not seen violent or erotic posts here, or even spam. So that is why I asked how does it work and please give some examples of actual posts is should be used on. Also discuss how introducing new punishment features will not have unintended consequences. A discussion of these sorts of things should precede any vote on what actions to take, that's how they do it in various congresses and parliaments. (Regarding the other topic, I don't know if there is a S/N problem or not. There are different kinds of posts than there were a year ago. There are more people here and different people. This is not what my comment was addressing at all though. I assume as a starting point that there is a problem with wrong posts and here are some proposals to solve it. I don't know if that is the case but I am assuming it to move on and discuss proposed changes to the board. The question I had was how will these solve the problem. The mechanisms of how these would work to improve things is no doubt clear to the OP, but is not obvious to me. Then again, since we are being asked to rank them, perhaps it is not so obvious even to the OP. If it is very obvious and clear to all we would just be told these should be implemented, and not asked which ones we have a gut feeling might work.)