4 ms·

Preface: I am not a virologist. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I would like to spark a discussion. https://jvi.asm.org/content/82/4/1899 https

Preface: I am not a virologist. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I would like to spark a discussion. https://jvi.asm.org/content/82/4/1899 https://jvi.asm.org/content/82/4/1899 This 2007 paper from the Wuhan Institute of Virology claims that an "HIV-based psuedovirus system" could be used to enable SARS-Like CoVs to jump to human hosts. As we recently discovered, SARS-CoV-2 has 4-5 "HIV inserts." Is it possible that SARS-CoV-2 was a byproduct virus engineered from this research? I don't buy the bioweapon theory, I don't think there is any hard evidence to prove that. What I do buy is that there were two different labs doing work on coronaviruses near the seafood market attributed to the breakout (and we now know a dozen or so patients did not visit the market, meaning it came from somewhere else...), and it is entirely possible that a failure in safety protocol could have led to an accidental release of research samples into the real world. It would not be the first time it has happened. I do still think it's entirely possible for it to have originated "in the wild" as well, but it would have to be a hell of a coincidence given the facts at hand.

hirenj 7y ago
On the HIV inserts, may I point you to this informative comment from a previous thread? I'm afraid it's not good information. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22206393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22206393
- nexuist 7y ago
  Thank you for the correction. I do see OP's points. This however does not invalidate the alternative theory that the virus was extracted from a bat in the wild and somehow escaped. I wish there was a way to prove definitively if it escaped or not. Without the cooperation of the CCP or whistleblowers, we will never know for sure, at least until it can be traced to an exact animal at the market.
w14 7y ago
Do you have a source for the 4-5 HIV insert claim? Was it the paper referred to here? https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/03/retraction-faulty-coronavirus-paper-good-moment-for-science/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/03/retraction-faulty-corona...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nkrisc 7y ago
> (and we now know a dozen or so patients did not visit the market, meaning it came from somewhere else...) Somewhere else, as in, the people who did visit the market?
- nexuist 7y ago
  Entirely possible! But the main point is that these cases started to show at relatively the same time. That would mean that these 14 people would have all had to have close contact with the seafood market visitors almost immediately after they visited the market. Which is totally possible! But very unlucky.
blackrock 7y ago
> failure in safety protocol could have led to an accidental release of research samples into the real world Geez. Now you’re just spreading conspiracy level nonsense, to find a convenient way to peg this on China’s government. HN moderators, you need to filter this guy’s Reddit-level nonsense.
- nexuist 7y ago
  This is not the proper way to discuss safety. Protocols and regulations are responsible, not just people and organizations. When aviation accidents happen, the broader goal of agencies such as the FAA/NTSB is to identify what to change, not who to blame. The broader point of my discussion is that this could have happened to any biolab, and it is important to figure out what happened so that if it did come from this lab, the proper measures can be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again. If you want to talk about China specifically, here is a key Nature article: https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487 https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to... > But worries surround the Chinese lab, too. The SARS virus has escaped from high-level containment facilities in Beijing multiple times, notes Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University in Piscataway, New Jersey. Tim Trevan, founder of CHROME Biosafety and Biosecurity Consulting in Damascus, Maryland, says that an open culture is important to keeping BSL-4 labs safe, and he questions how easy this will be in China, where society emphasizes hierarchy. “Diversity of viewpoint, flat structures where everyone feels free to speak up and openness of information are important,” he says. Also, biolab incidents are as much of a conspiracy theory as historical events. The article I link itself mentioned the SARS outbreaks in Beijing, indicating a previous safety issue. In 1971 a Soviet bioweapon facility conducted an open air test of smallpox and accidentally infected 10 people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_smallpox_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_smallpox_incident At some point in the 1970s a Soviet bioweaponeer named Nikolai Ustinov accidentally injected himself with an extremely viral load of Marburg virus and died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus#Biological_weapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus#Biological_weapo... In 1978 a British photographer was "accidentally exposed to a strain of smallpox virus that had been grown in a research laboratory on the floor below her workplace": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_smallpox_outbreak_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_smallpox_outbreak_in_the_... In 1979 a Soviet bioweapon facility accidentally released anthrax into the open air and killed 100 people (officially): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_anthrax_leak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_anthrax_leak In 2004 a Russian scientist died of Ebola after accidentally injecting herself with it: https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/25/world/russian-scientist-dies-in-ebola-accident-at-former-weapons-lab.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/25/world/russian-scientist-d... In 2009 an American researcher came down with the Plague and died after being exposed to it in his lab: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6007a1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6007a1.htm Want more? Here's 450 (!!!) results from the CDC itself for the query "Laboratory-Acquired Infection": https://search.cdc.gov/search/index.html?query=Laboratory-Acquired+Infection https://search.cdc.gov/search/index.html?query=Laboratory-Ac... Countries range from the United States to India. To believe that China is somehow immune from human error is naive.

hirenj 7y ago

On the HIV inserts, may I point you to this informative comment from a previous thread? I'm afraid it's not good information. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22206393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22206393

nexuist 7y ago
Thank you for the correction. I do see OP's points. This however does not invalidate the alternative theory that the virus was extracted from a bat in the wild and somehow escaped. I wish there was a way to prove definitively if it escaped or not. Without the cooperation of the CCP or whistleblowers, we will never know for sure, at least until it can be traced to an exact animal at the market.

w14 7y ago

Do you have a source for the 4-5 HIV insert claim? Was it the paper referred to here? https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/03/retraction-faulty-coronavirus-paper-good-moment-for-science/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/03/retraction-faulty-corona...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

nkrisc 7y ago

> (and we now know a dozen or so patients did not visit the market, meaning it came from somewhere else...) Somewhere else, as in, the people who did visit the market?

nexuist 7y ago
Entirely possible! But the main point is that these cases started to show at relatively the same time. That would mean that these 14 people would have all had to have close contact with the seafood market visitors almost immediately after they visited the market. Which is totally possible! But very unlucky.

blackrock 7y ago

> failure in safety protocol could have led to an accidental release of research samples into the real world Geez. Now you’re just spreading conspiracy level nonsense, to find a convenient way to peg this on China’s government. HN moderators, you need to filter this guy’s Reddit-level nonsense.

nexuist 7y ago
This is not the proper way to discuss safety. Protocols and regulations are responsible, not just people and organizations. When aviation accidents happen, the broader goal of agencies such as the FAA/NTSB is to identify what to change, not who to blame. The broader point of my discussion is that this could have happened to any biolab, and it is important to figure out what happened so that if it did come from this lab, the proper measures can be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again. If you want to talk about China specifically, here is a key Nature article: https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487 https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to... > But worries surround the Chinese lab, too. The SARS virus has escaped from high-level containment facilities in Beijing multiple times, notes Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University in Piscataway, New Jersey. Tim Trevan, founder of CHROME Biosafety and Biosecurity Consulting in Damascus, Maryland, says that an open culture is important to keeping BSL-4 labs safe, and he questions how easy this will be in China, where society emphasizes hierarchy. “Diversity of viewpoint, flat structures where everyone feels free to speak up and openness of information are important,” he says. Also, biolab incidents are as much of a conspiracy theory as historical events. The article I link itself mentioned the SARS outbreaks in Beijing, indicating a previous safety issue. In 1971 a Soviet bioweapon facility conducted an open air test of smallpox and accidentally infected 10 people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_smallpox_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_smallpox_incident At some point in the 1970s a Soviet bioweaponeer named Nikolai Ustinov accidentally injected himself with an extremely viral load of Marburg virus and died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus#Biological_weapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus#Biological_weapo... In 1978 a British photographer was "accidentally exposed to a strain of smallpox virus that had been grown in a research laboratory on the floor below her workplace": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_smallpox_outbreak_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_smallpox_outbreak_in_the_... In 1979 a Soviet bioweapon facility accidentally released anthrax into the open air and killed 100 people (officially): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_anthrax_leak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_anthrax_leak In 2004 a Russian scientist died of Ebola after accidentally injecting herself with it: https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/25/world/russian-scientist-dies-in-ebola-accident-at-former-weapons-lab.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/25/world/russian-scientist-d... In 2009 an American researcher came down with the Plague and died after being exposed to it in his lab: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6007a1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6007a1.htm Want more? Here's 450 (!!!) results from the CDC itself for the query "Laboratory-Acquired Infection": https://search.cdc.gov/search/index.html?query=Laboratory-Acquired+Infection https://search.cdc.gov/search/index.html?query=Laboratory-Ac... Countries range from the United States to India. To believe that China is somehow immune from human error is naive.