6 ms·

This sounds a bit weird to me. Why do cigarette companies take blame for people who smoke and cause fires while falling asleep during it? Do we blame knife manu

This sounds a bit weird to me. Why do cigarette companies take blame for people who smoke and cause fires while falling asleep during it? Do we blame knife manufacturers when a cook cuts himself?

rgovostes 7y ago
According to the documentary "Merchants of Doubt," there were modifications that could be made to cigarette design to reduce the likelihood of causing a fire, but the companies resisted changing their products.
- klyrs 7y ago
  Do you remember what modifications were on the table? Kinda seems like a cigarette is a punk (in the pyrotechnic sense)... I'm having trouble seeing anything that would be effective without being annoying enough for people to work around.
  - namdnay 7y ago
    By changing the formula for the paper, you can have a cigarette that will go out if you don't drag on it for 30-60s, just like a hand-rolled. But obviously that's bad for business..
    - furgooswft13 7y ago
      > have a cigarette that will go out if you don't drag on it for 30-60s Have you smoked a cigarette recently (as in at least the past 10 years)?. This is absolutely what they do. I'm not sure what the exact flame out time is for any particular brand, but it's a real drag (ahem) for people who like to smoke slowly, as the first re-lit hit feels very harsh. According to Wikipedia[1] fire-safe cigarettes are required in all 50 states as of 2011. It's been awhile since I've smoked but I remember me and my friends bitching about the fire safe paper many years before that. We also theorized that it was making the cig more harsh in general. Of course we never had any evidence of this. I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me that simple paper + tobacco hand rolled cigs natural behavior would be to not flame out, or do so much more slowly. What's stopping it from continuing to burn? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_safe_cigarette#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_safe_cigarette#United_Sta...
      - kick 7y ago
        The US is not the UK.
        dfox 7y ago
        But it still is/was/whatever in EU, where the self extinguishing cigarettes are also mandatory.
      - namdnay 7y ago
        Indeed I haven't smoked for a long long time. It seems that they were implemented end of 2011 in the EU For hand rolled I'm not sure, I just remember that they would go out much easier, whatever is rolled inside of them
- dx034 7y ago
  I believe that's mandated now in the EU. Cigarettes will stop burning if left alone for a few minutes. Very annoying for inattentive smokers. But I'm not sure how much of an effect that had on fires.
dabeeeenster 7y ago
The same reason cyclists are at fault for not wearing high-vis clothing or helmets.
logfromblammo 7y ago
A careless cook is unlikely to injure others, whereas a careless smoker could burn down the entire apartment complex. Based on the American principle of jurisprudence commonly known as "sue the one with the most money", the families of those burnt-up people would probably go after the cigarette manufacturer. The smoker, after all, would probably not routinely have burning embers smoldering in their home without the cigarette, would not be careless with fire without the casual familiarity with the burning cigarette, and would not be smoking at all without the addictive herbs and chemicals added to the cigarette by the manufacturer. Imagine if a firearms manufacturer used television and movies to promote the idea that frequently firing live rounds in your own home was a fun and relaxing activity that is completely normal and acceptable (like Elvis shooting his television--free endorsement!). And occasionally someone might die from overpenetration. Gunmakers would then probably promote something like aramid or kevlar fabric wallboard sheathing, too, for more bullet-resistant walls. Arms companies have not, in fact, done anything quite that careless, yet they still get sued occasionally when gun owners are negligent. Not because they deserve the blame; because they have the most money. If that knife manufacturer had deep pockets, you can bet your ass that eventually some clumsy cook would sue them.
- tapland 7y ago
  I mean, most companies manufacturing kitchen knives seem to be valued a lot higher than Glock or Remington for example, who have both been sued.
pessimizer 7y ago
The cigarette companies use paper that doesn't stop burning when a drag hasn't been taken in a while, because it probably allows them to sell 5% more cigarettes (due to inattentive smokers.) Note that I'm not saying here that they simply fail to use some technology or chemical that would cause a cigarette to burn out. They are doing the opposite; a hand-rolled cigarette burns out on its own. Cigarette fires are usually caused when a smoker falls asleep while holding a cigarette.
- carapace 7y ago
  Little rings of gunpowder in the paper to make it act like a fuse, that's nothing. At one point tobacco companies developed non-addictive cigarettes and kept it a secret. Source: A long time back a friend of mine's brother was part of a faux-jury assembled by tobacco company lawyers to do like a focus group to research how real juries in some real trial might think/feel. They revealed all kinds of stuff to these folks. They made them sign NDAs, of course, but he told us everything anyway. That was one of the things I remember: they made non-addictive cigs and kept it a secret.
  - wafflesraccoon 7y ago
    It's really not that surprising if you think about it. They have caffeine free coffee and alcohol free beer. I suspect it would not do well as a product, all the downsides of smoking without the rewarding nicotine buzz. It would be interesting to learn more.
  - kiterunner2346 7y ago
    carapace says>"Little rings of gunpowder in the paper to make it act like a fuse..." There is no gunpowder in cigarettes: https://www.verywellmind.com/big-tobaccos-list-of-599-cigarette-additives-2824422 https://www.verywellmind.com/big-tobaccos-list-of-599-cigare... https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=27857 https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=27857 A non-addictive cigarette would have to have no nicotine b/c nicotine is addictive: https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco-nicotine-e-cigarettes/nicotine-addictive https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/toba... "Source: A long time back a friend of mine's brother was part of a faux-jury assembled by tobacco company lawyers to do like a focus group to research how real juries in some real trial might think/feel." Ycombinator post<--carapace<--friend<--brother<--faux-jury<--lawyers<--tobacco company Even facts get changed when they're nested >5 levels deep in human networks.
Falloodude 7y ago
This is a false equivalency. Cooks are not chemically addicted to food in the same way smokers are chemically addicted to cigarettes. Practically speaking, cooks usually only use knives in rooms/places with food. Smokers could be smoking anywhere. When my apartment building nearly caught fire because someone two buildings over fell asleep with a cigarette in hand, killed themselves, and burned down two other apartments, of course people wondered why cigarettes don't burn out on their own when you stop taking drags.
- refurb 7y ago
  Should candle manufacturers be held responsible when someone burns their place down because they left a candle burning or put it near flammable material or knocked it over?
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    Candles pose risk, but otherwise serve a useful purpose.
    - jstarfish 7y ago
      So do cigarettes, nominally-- they are one of the only legal stimulants on the market.
      - slowmovintarget 7y ago
        Fire is no longer necessary for consumption of the drug, though. Not that I think it wise to consume nicotine...
        AstralStorm 7y ago
        Never was. Nicotine gum and oils were available for a long long time, same with chewable and insufflable tobacco.
  - logicalmind 7y ago
bluGill 7y ago
It isn't that they took the blame so much as they wanted to take one blame off their customer and thus remove one incentive that those customers would have to give up their products. Also it is their customers most likely to die in such a fire. That is what I would assume anyway, I'm not in the industry.
lostlogin 7y ago
When people do stupid things it is good if the don’t die. Car safety is an area that come to mind, and that slowly pushes forward with mechanisms for saving people.

This sounds a bit weird to me. Why do cigarette companies take blame for people who smoke and cause fires while falling asleep during it? Do we blame knife manufacturers when a cook cuts himself?

rgovostes 7y ago

According to the documentary "Merchants of Doubt," there were modifications that could be made to cigarette design to reduce the likelihood of causing a fire, but the companies resisted changing their products.

klyrs 7y ago
Do you remember what modifications were on the table? Kinda seems like a cigarette is a punk (in the pyrotechnic sense)... I'm having trouble seeing anything that would be effective without being annoying enough for people to work around.
- namdnay 7y ago
  By changing the formula for the paper, you can have a cigarette that will go out if you don't drag on it for 30-60s, just like a hand-rolled. But obviously that's bad for business..
  - furgooswft13 7y ago
    > have a cigarette that will go out if you don't drag on it for 30-60s Have you smoked a cigarette recently (as in at least the past 10 years)?. This is absolutely what they do. I'm not sure what the exact flame out time is for any particular brand, but it's a real drag (ahem) for people who like to smoke slowly, as the first re-lit hit feels very harsh. According to Wikipedia[1] fire-safe cigarettes are required in all 50 states as of 2011. It's been awhile since I've smoked but I remember me and my friends bitching about the fire safe paper many years before that. We also theorized that it was making the cig more harsh in general. Of course we never had any evidence of this. I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me that simple paper + tobacco hand rolled cigs natural behavior would be to not flame out, or do so much more slowly. What's stopping it from continuing to burn? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_safe_cigarette#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_safe_cigarette#United_Sta...
    - kick 7y ago
      The US is not the UK.
      - dfox 7y ago
        But it still is/was/whatever in EU, where the self extinguishing cigarettes are also mandatory.
    - namdnay 7y ago
      Indeed I haven't smoked for a long long time. It seems that they were implemented end of 2011 in the EU For hand rolled I'm not sure, I just remember that they would go out much easier, whatever is rolled inside of them
dx034 7y ago
I believe that's mandated now in the EU. Cigarettes will stop burning if left alone for a few minutes. Very annoying for inattentive smokers. But I'm not sure how much of an effect that had on fires.

dabeeeenster 7y ago

The same reason cyclists are at fault for not wearing high-vis clothing or helmets.

logfromblammo 7y ago

A careless cook is unlikely to injure others, whereas a careless smoker could burn down the entire apartment complex. Based on the American principle of jurisprudence commonly known as "sue the one with the most money", the families of those burnt-up people would probably go after the cigarette manufacturer. The smoker, after all, would probably not routinely have burning embers smoldering in their home without the cigarette, would not be careless with fire without the casual familiarity with the burning cigarette, and would not be smoking at all without the addictive herbs and chemicals added to the cigarette by the manufacturer. Imagine if a firearms manufacturer used television and movies to promote the idea that frequently firing live rounds in your own home was a fun and relaxing activity that is completely normal and acceptable (like Elvis shooting his television--free endorsement!). And occasionally someone might die from overpenetration. Gunmakers would then probably promote something like aramid or kevlar fabric wallboard sheathing, too, for more bullet-resistant walls. Arms companies have not, in fact, done anything quite that careless, yet they still get sued occasionally when gun owners are negligent. Not because they deserve the blame; because they have the most money. If that knife manufacturer had deep pockets, you can bet your ass that eventually some clumsy cook would sue them.

tapland 7y ago
I mean, most companies manufacturing kitchen knives seem to be valued a lot higher than Glock or Remington for example, who have both been sued.

pessimizer 7y ago

The cigarette companies use paper that doesn't stop burning when a drag hasn't been taken in a while, because it probably allows them to sell 5% more cigarettes (due to inattentive smokers.) Note that I'm not saying here that they simply fail to use some technology or chemical that would cause a cigarette to burn out. They are doing the opposite; a hand-rolled cigarette burns out on its own. Cigarette fires are usually caused when a smoker falls asleep while holding a cigarette.

carapace 7y ago
Little rings of gunpowder in the paper to make it act like a fuse, that's nothing. At one point tobacco companies developed non-addictive cigarettes and kept it a secret. Source: A long time back a friend of mine's brother was part of a faux-jury assembled by tobacco company lawyers to do like a focus group to research how real juries in some real trial might think/feel. They revealed all kinds of stuff to these folks. They made them sign NDAs, of course, but he told us everything anyway. That was one of the things I remember: they made non-addictive cigs and kept it a secret.
- wafflesraccoon 7y ago
  It's really not that surprising if you think about it. They have caffeine free coffee and alcohol free beer. I suspect it would not do well as a product, all the downsides of smoking without the rewarding nicotine buzz. It would be interesting to learn more.
- kiterunner2346 7y ago
  carapace says>"Little rings of gunpowder in the paper to make it act like a fuse..." There is no gunpowder in cigarettes: https://www.verywellmind.com/big-tobaccos-list-of-599-cigarette-additives-2824422 https://www.verywellmind.com/big-tobaccos-list-of-599-cigare... https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=27857 https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=27857 A non-addictive cigarette would have to have no nicotine b/c nicotine is addictive: https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco-nicotine-e-cigarettes/nicotine-addictive https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/toba... "Source: A long time back a friend of mine's brother was part of a faux-jury assembled by tobacco company lawyers to do like a focus group to research how real juries in some real trial might think/feel." Ycombinator post<--carapace<--friend<--brother<--faux-jury<--lawyers<--tobacco company Even facts get changed when they're nested >5 levels deep in human networks.

Falloodude 7y ago

This is a false equivalency. Cooks are not chemically addicted to food in the same way smokers are chemically addicted to cigarettes. Practically speaking, cooks usually only use knives in rooms/places with food. Smokers could be smoking anywhere. When my apartment building nearly caught fire because someone two buildings over fell asleep with a cigarette in hand, killed themselves, and burned down two other apartments, of course people wondered why cigarettes don't burn out on their own when you stop taking drags.

refurb 7y ago
Should candle manufacturers be held responsible when someone burns their place down because they left a candle burning or put it near flammable material or knocked it over?
- nkrisc 7y ago
  Candles pose risk, but otherwise serve a useful purpose.
  - jstarfish 7y ago
    So do cigarettes, nominally-- they are one of the only legal stimulants on the market.
    - slowmovintarget 7y ago
      Fire is no longer necessary for consumption of the drug, though. Not that I think it wise to consume nicotine...
      - AstralStorm 7y ago
        Never was. Nicotine gum and oils were available for a long long time, same with chewable and insufflable tobacco.
- logicalmind 7y ago

bluGill 7y ago

It isn't that they took the blame so much as they wanted to take one blame off their customer and thus remove one incentive that those customers would have to give up their products. Also it is their customers most likely to die in such a fire. That is what I would assume anyway, I'm not in the industry.

lostlogin 7y ago

When people do stupid things it is good if the don’t die. Car safety is an area that come to mind, and that slowly pushes forward with mechanisms for saving people.